Are the Russians developing a clone of APKWS laser rockets?

[Rick50]

If I spent days searching I might get an answer, but I bet a few of you already know:

 

Is there a Russian or "Eastern" guidance kit for rockets, similar to the APKWS, either being developed, field tested, fielded among frontline units, or development stalled due to lack of funding?

 

Or is such a thing even on the radar?

 

I know that older HINDs never had laser designators, but what about now? Do any HIND's even have a laser designator needed for this? Or is that only something that would need a new or custom upgrade?

 

 

No, I'm NOT suggesting this DCS HIND ought to have guided rockets, it should have what ED decides it should have, based on the date they pick, based on what was really fielded. I'm simply curious if such a development is incoming, and figured this part of the forum would know better than the rest.

[=4c=Nikola]

Yes, they have developed such upgrade more than 20 years ago.

 

It's called Ugrosa, and rocket are designated as

S-5Kor

S-8Kor

S-13Kor

 

Don't know whether they fielded it, they kinda love their unguided variants.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Yup, Ugroza predates APKWS by a long shot. However, Russian helicopters have relied more on the Ataka, Vikhr and Shturm instead.

 

To answer the question, the second generation Mi-24 (P, V, VP) did not have a laser designator. A few were modified with a range finder, but that's that. In DCS, you'll be able to use both Shturm and Ataka missiles, usually four, with a maximum of eight.

[Rick50]

Interesting! Thanks for the replies!

 

I guess it might be like a lot of projects: development starts, then you don't hear anything for years, and suddenly a decade later you find out it's now being used in the field... or got cancelled 5 years ago!

 

I remember the idea of the APKWS was being considered as a "what if?" concept back in the mid-90's, and then years went by with no word of any of it. I remembered thinking "Hmm, an Apache could carry a lot of those rockets... that would have big implications on the battlefield".

[Dragon1-1]

The problem is, Hinds do not have laser designators, and AFAIK, we don't have a functional Russian JTAC who could lase targets for the rockets. Nothing that could buddy-lase targets for the helo, either (dunno if the Su-25 can do that).

 

Which is a pity, too. A guided S-13 would be a beast. :)

[Lucas_From_Hell]

As far as I know the Su-25, Su-25T and Ka-50 do have a laser designator they use for the Kh-25L and Kh-29L missiles, but considering they all have forward-looking systems I don't think it'd be practical to guide for others.

[sublime]

Hey, this has come up on another thread sort of. What *DID* they use to gauge range then? Guesstimation or,...?

[Lucas_From_Hell]

As far as I know it uses the radar altimeter together with other flight instruments to determine the impact point.

[Dragon1-1]

The reticle. :) No, seriously, this system is similar, but more sophisticated than you'd see on a rifle scope. You compare the size of a target to the marks on the reticle.

 

Of course, this isn't a very accurate method, but it works. That said, the -24P might also have a gyro/alt radar based sight somewhat similar to the one on MiG-21.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Dragon1-1

[S.E.Bulba]

The reticle. :) No, seriously, this system is similar, but more sophisticated than you'd see on a rifle scope. You compare the size of a target to the marks on the reticle…

:yes:

 

Milliradian § Range estimation with mrad reticles

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by S.E.Bulba
update.

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

As far as I know it uses the radar altimeter together with other flight instruments to determine the impact point.

This is also true. :yes:

 

If the pilot is firing in automatic mode using the ATsVU analog-digital computing device, then the range scale on the ASP-17V movable aiming mark (aiming pipper in the figure below) will show the current range to the target.

 

 

Original in Russian

 

Это тоже верно. :yes:

 

Если пилот ведёт стрельбу в автоматическом режиме с использованием аналого-цифрового вычислительного устройства АЦВУ, то шкала дальности на подвижной прицельной марке АСП-17В (прицельная метка на рис. ниже) будет показывать текущую дальность до цели.

 

[Kerberos]

Just to add to that: the range will of course only be an estimation. The system assumes that the ground under the helicopter is flat.

 

 

So in the mountains your range indicator and therefore impact point will often be not very accurate

[sublime]

well the chinese have BRM 90s..

im sure the russians have laser guided rockets if china does

[ZHeN]

not in mass production

we've had a lot of prototypes in development, but only S-25L made it into series in 80s

[Schmidtfire]

Lasers might be better these days but during the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, the Su-25 mostly used the sight in manual mode. The laser was found to be too inacurrate for precision strikes. At least over that kind of terrain. One particular Su-25 jet became the ”go to” striker as they fine-tuned the laser and sight on that jet. Another thing the Soviets did was to mount a laser (from a damaged Su-25) onto a BOMAN vehicle. With help of a machinegun sight the BTR-80 would roll up as close as possible to the target and lase from the ground for Su-25’s.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Schmidtfire

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

Just to add to that: the range will of course only be an estimation. The system assumes that the ground under the helicopter is flat.

 

 

So in the mountains your range indicator and therefore impact point will often be not very accurate

Yes, but for such cases there is a manual firing mode, for example. The pilot manually sets the expected target size and the required firing range (while on the ASP-17V movable aiming mark, the distance between horizontal line marks is set, and the range scale shows the set range). As soon as the target occupies the space between horizontal line marks, the pilot fires.

 

 

Original in Russian

 

Да, но для таких случаев существует ручной режим стрельбы, например. Пилот вручную устанавливает базу цели и необходимую дальность открытия огня (при этом на подвижной прицельной марке АСП-17В устанавливается расстояние между горизонтальными штрихами, а шкала дальности показывает установленную дальность). Как только цель занимает пространство между горизонтальными штрихами – пилот открывает огонь.

 

[Stratos]

. Another thing the Soviets did was to mount a laser (from a damaged Su-25) onto a BOMAN vehicle. With help of a machinegun sight the BTR-80 would roll up as close as possible to the target and lase from the ground for Su-25’s.

 

Interesting! Do you have more info of that?

[Schmidtfire]

It is from this book: https://www.amazon.com/25-Frogfoot-Units-Combat-Aircraft/dp/1472805674

 

There is more info on the accuracy (or inaccuracy) of laser guided munitions used from Su-25 in the book.

 

However, I just found that Su-25 Ground Designation is a hot topic on the Russian Forums. It does not seem

Like something that was widely used.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Schmidtfire

[Schmidtfire]

Here is some info on the lasing vehicle:

 

https://en.topwar.ru/31637-na-pomosch-letchikam-boevye-mashiny-aviacionnyh-navodchikov.html

[Stratos]

Here is some info on the lasing vehicle:

 

https://en.topwar.ru/31637-na-pomosch-letchikam-boevye-mashiny-aviacionnyh-navodchikov.html

 

Thanks a lot! Really interesting.

[Fri13]

Yup, Ugroza predates APKWS by a long shot. However, Russian helicopters have relied more on the Ataka, Vikhr and Shturm instead.

 

To answer the question, the second generation Mi-24 (P, V, VP) did not have a laser designator. A few were modified with a range finder, but that's that. In DCS, you'll be able to use both Shturm and Ataka missiles, usually four, with a maximum of eight.

 

The Russian variant didn't require more than 1 second designation, that is why you can use it with all that can just range the distance as well because ranging is not so quick and fast as people think.

 

But you don't get a guidance on maneuvering target with just one second lazing as you need to track target.

[Dudikoff]

The Russian variant didn't require more than 1 second designation, that is why you can use it with all that can just range the distance as well because ranging is not so quick and fast as people think.

 

But you don't get a guidance on maneuvering target with just one second lazing as you need to track target.

 

Where did you get the information that the system doesn't require laser designation till the impact? That makes no sense.

[Dragon1-1]

It does, if they have some kind of gyroscopic autopilot in addition to the laser seeker. This is possible to do, but will be less pinpoint accurate. It's like a rocket-powered LJDAM, basically, only with INS instead of GPS.

[Dudikoff]

It does, if they have some kind of gyroscopic autopilot in addition to the laser seeker. This is possible to do, but will be less pinpoint accurate. It's like a rocket-powered LJDAM, basically, only with INS instead of GPS.

 

So, let's complicate (and make more expensive) the cheap rocket further to remove the benefit of adding the laser guidance in the first place? Again, that makes no practical sense.

 

I presume the OP simply misunderstood something.

[Fri13]

Where did you get the information that the system doesn't require laser designation till the impact? That makes no sense.

 

Why it doesn't make sense?

 

The rocket doesn't start to deviate after correction, it flies straight for a while before gravity starts to pull down more and more like normal unguided rocket.

 

If you time the laser to end of flight, you get them fly far first and then capture laser to correct flight trajectory.

 

I have wondered the 1 second laser period minimum as being it takes a second to find the spot in flight, or it takes second after launch to start searching the spot, or it simply requires one second to allow rocket to use its correction boosters in the nose to correct heading.

 

But same thing as with APKWS, laser designation is not required, you launch then those with just ballistic curve (and waste the more expensive seeker module doing so) and you don't need to designate through whole flight, as just enough to get the rocket stabilize it's trajectory at the target and laser can be stopped.

 

It doesn't mean that longer designation doesn't help to avoid gusts and other inaccuracies in the last moments, and isn't required to track a moving target.

 

But just that your rocket doesn't go crazy if laser is stopped prematurely before impact. And one second should be enough for Russian variant.

It is mentioned so in few rare places where information is available about it.