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Are the Russians developing a clone of APKWS laser rockets?

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    Are the Russians developing a clone of APKWS laser rockets?

    If I spent days searching I might get an answer, but I bet a few of you already know:

    Is there a Russian or "Eastern" guidance kit for rockets, similar to the APKWS, either being developed, field tested, fielded among frontline units, or development stalled due to lack of funding?

    Or is such a thing even on the radar?

    I know that older HINDs never had laser designators, but what about now? Do any HIND's even have a laser designator needed for this? Or is that only something that would need a new or custom upgrade?


    No, I'm NOT suggesting this DCS HIND ought to have guided rockets, it should have what ED decides it should have, based on the date they pick, based on what was really fielded. I'm simply curious if such a development is incoming, and figured this part of the forum would know better than the rest.

    #2
    Yes, they have developed such upgrade more than 20 years ago.

    It's called Ugrosa, and rocket are designated as
    S-5Kor
    S-8Kor
    S-13Kor

    Don't know whether they fielded it, they kinda love their unguided variants.
    Do not expect fairness.
    The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.

    Comment


      #3
      Yup, Ugroza predates APKWS by a long shot. However, Russian helicopters have relied more on the Ataka, Vikhr and Shturm instead.

      To answer the question, the second generation Mi-24 (P, V, VP) did not have a laser designator. A few were modified with a range finder, but that's that. In DCS, you'll be able to use both Shturm and Ataka missiles, usually four, with a maximum of eight.

      Comment


        #4
        Interesting! Thanks for the replies!

        I guess it might be like a lot of projects: development starts, then you don't hear anything for years, and suddenly a decade later you find out it's now being used in the field... or got cancelled 5 years ago!

        I remember the idea of the APKWS was being considered as a "what if?" concept back in the mid-90's, and then years went by with no word of any of it. I remembered thinking "Hmm, an Apache could carry a lot of those rockets... that would have big implications on the battlefield".

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          #5
          The problem is, Hinds do not have laser designators, and AFAIK, we don't have a functional Russian JTAC who could lase targets for the rockets. Nothing that could buddy-lase targets for the helo, either (dunno if the Su-25 can do that).

          Which is a pity, too. A guided S-13 would be a beast.

          Comment


            #6
            As far as I know the Su-25, Su-25T and Ka-50 do have a laser designator they use for the Kh-25L and Kh-29L missiles, but considering they all have forward-looking systems I don't think it'd be practical to guide for others.

            Comment


              #7
              Hey, this has come up on another thread sort of. What *DID* they use to gauge range then? Guesstimation or,...?

              Comment


                #8
                As far as I know it uses the radar altimeter together with other flight instruments to determine the impact point.

                Comment


                  #9
                  The reticle. No, seriously, this system is similar, but more sophisticated than you'd see on a rifle scope. You compare the size of a target to the marks on the reticle.

                  Of course, this isn't a very accurate method, but it works. That said, the -24P might also have a gyro/alt radar based sight somewhat similar to the one on MiG-21.
                  Last edited 10-11-2020, 04:22 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Dragon1-1 View Post
                    The reticle. No, seriously, this system is similar, but more sophisticated than you'd see on a rifle scope. You compare the size of a target to the marks on the reticle…


                    Milliradian § Range estimation with mrad reticles

                    Last edited 10-12-2020, 05:45 PM. Reason: update.
                    Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Google Translate

                      Originally posted by Lucas_From_Hell View Post
                      As far as I know it uses the radar altimeter together with other flight instruments to determine the impact point.
                      This is also true.

                      If the pilot is firing in automatic mode using the ATsVU analog-digital computing device, then the range scale on the ASP-17V movable aiming mark (aiming pipper in the figure below) will show the current range to the target.


                      Spoiler:
                      Original in Russian

                      Это тоже верно.

                      Если пилот ведёт стрельбу в автоматическом режиме с использованием аналого-цифрового вычислительного устройства АЦВУ, то шкала дальности на подвижной прицельной марке АСП-17В (прицельная метка на рис. ниже) будет показывать текущую дальность до цели.
                      Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Just to add to that: the range will of course only be an estimation. The system assumes that the ground under the helicopter is flat.


                        So in the mountains your range indicator and therefore impact point will often be not very accurate

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                          #13
                          well the chinese have BRM 90s..
                          im sure the russians have laser guided rockets if china does

                          Comment


                            #14
                            not in mass production
                            we've had a lot of prototypes in development, but only S-25L made it into series in 80s
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Lasers might be better these days but during the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, the Su-25 mostly used the sight in manual mode. The laser was found to be too inacurrate for precision strikes. At least over that kind of terrain. One particular Su-25 jet became the ”go to” striker as they fine-tuned the laser and sight on that jet. Another thing the Soviets did was to mount a laser (from a damaged Su-25) onto a BOMAN vehicle. With help of a machinegun sight the BTR-80 would roll up as close as possible to the target and lase from the ground for Su-25’s.
                              Last edited 10-13-2020, 02:40 PM.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Google Translate

                                Originally posted by Kerberos View Post
                                Just to add to that: the range will of course only be an estimation. The system assumes that the ground under the helicopter is flat.


                                So in the mountains your range indicator and therefore impact point will often be not very accurate
                                Yes, but for such cases there is a manual firing mode, for example. The pilot manually sets the expected target size and the required firing range (while on the ASP-17V movable aiming mark, the distance between horizontal line marks is set, and the range scale shows the set range). As soon as the target occupies the space between horizontal line marks, the pilot fires.


                                Spoiler:
                                Original in Russian

                                Да, но для таких случаев существует ручной режим стрельбы, например. Пилот вручную устанавливает базу цели и необходимую дальность открытия огня (при этом на подвижной прицельной марке АСП-17В устанавливается расстояние между горизонтальными штрихами, а шкала дальности показывает установленную дальность). Как только цель занимает пространство между горизонтальными штрихами – пилот открывает огонь.
                                Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Schmidtfire View Post
                                  . Another thing the Soviets did was to mount a laser (from a damaged Su-25) onto a BOMAN vehicle. With help of a machinegun sight the BTR-80 would roll up as close as possible to the target and lase from the ground for Su-25’s.
                                  Interesting! Do you have more info of that?
                                  I don't understand anything in russian except Davai Davai!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    It is from this book: https://www.amazon.com/25-Frogfoot-U.../dp/1472805674

                                    There is more info on the accuracy (or inaccuracy) of laser guided munitions used from Su-25 in the book.

                                    However, I just found that Su-25 Ground Designation is a hot topic on the Russian Forums. It does not seem
                                    Like something that was widely used.
                                    Last edited 10-13-2020, 04:17 PM.

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                                      #19
                                      Here is some info on the lasing vehicle:

                                      https://en.topwar.ru/31637-na-pomosc...vodchikov.html

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Schmidtfire View Post
                                        Here is some info on the lasing vehicle:

                                        https://en.topwar.ru/31637-na-pomosc...vodchikov.html
                                        Thanks a lot! Really interesting.
                                        I don't understand anything in russian except Davai Davai!

                                        Comment

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