KA-50 AI

[Rabies]

I’ve only just started to fly the KA-50 in the last couple of weeks, I’ve had it for a few years but I just loved flying the Mi-8.

 

I’ve started the Deployment campaign and I have noticed that the AI wingman seem to be a tad suicidal.

 

Upon reaching the objective, I have commanded them to commence with the “mission and rejoin”. To my amazement, I watch them trundle off over the objective, watch all the pretty tracers and white missile streaks, then the “ I’m hit” and the black streak heading towards the ground.

 

So I changed tactic. I would lock onto a specific target and instruct my wingman to engage. Once again, he goes charging off into the distance, gets lit up like a Christmas tree and disappears in a black streak of flame and smoke.

 

Are my tactics wrong, or is currently the KA-50 AI martyrdom?

[fudabidu]

You probably want MadDog's Deployment patch. Caucasus changed with the 2.5 update years ago and ED still hasn't bothered testing/updating the campaign missions.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3308753/

 

If the AI can't see the target it will fly straight towards it, ignoring all threats along the way. Not only is AI stupid like this, it's also totally blind sometimes. You really have to babysit your wingman.

 

Don't let your wingman attack anything before you've taken down all air defenses. It's at least going to increase his chances of survival. If he gets too close to the targets order him to rejoin.

 

Instead of using "attack my target" send him a datalink point and order "engage datalink targets by type". If you've send him the position of a BTR he should focus on that type of vehicle. "Engage datalink targets" will order him to engage everything in the vicinity. This will at least lower his chances of going suicidal, since he isn't focused on one specific target.

You can also send him an ingress point, so he will start his attack from this location. Useful if you think he has (read: should have) a better view from somewhere else.

 

You can at least use him for scouting somewhat reliably, but just don't send him too far. If the target is 10km away, only send him 6km.

 

I find it really sad that we still have to deal with poor AI 12 years after the original BS release.

[Taz1004]

Reason why it keeps jumping around is because it can't see. Overcast and light condition is one of the reason. You can reduce it by editing the lua files but easier way is just edit the mission file. I do that before every mission so I can study the mission too. Below are things I do to every Ka-50 mission before I fly.

 

1. Make my flight invincible. You have to assume there's no such stupid wingman in real life. I wish there's way to make only wingman invincible but there isn't. So if I get hit, I do honor system and restart.
   
2. With invincibility, I also give "No Reaction" to threats option. This will prevent them wandering around avoiding threats and actually do some killing.
   
3. Remove overcast and fog. Reduce cloud density below 8. They just can't see and wont fire with heavy cloud.
   
4. Reduce enemy units by 25%. Deployment isn't that bad but many of GOW campaign expectations are unrealistic. Having more enemy units than weapons you carry. I feel it's more realistic to make some mistakes and missile malfunctions and still complete the mission.
   

 

Even with that, wingman will keep jumping around if a target is under a tree and it can't see. If you assign multiple targets using "Engage datalink targets" or "Engage ground units" it will go after closest one first. And if that enemy is obscured, it'll be stuck and wont move on to next target. So best option is to keep your wingman next to you, then find a target that's wide open, and give him "Engage my target"

[wowbagger]

I've just spent the last week (after 8 years of owning it) finally learning to fly this helicopter.

 

This all sounds rather depressing.

[Taz1004]

I've just spent the last week (after 8 years of owning it) finally learning to fly this helicopter.

 

This all sounds rather depressing.

 

All modules are plagued by poor wingman AI. At least Ka-50 doesn't have wingman that uses up all fuel 10 minute into mission and eject. That bug doesn't even have workaround as invincibility doesn't apply to ejection. And it makes wingman completely useless.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Taz1004

[fudabidu]

It is indeed depressing.

 

With 12 years it's the oldest full fidelity module and it still feels like early access.

Datalink still bugs out sometimes, saving points through HMS is bugged, Shkval is a sad hack (possibly taken from the FC3 Su-25T), campaigns still haven't been officially updated for 2.5 Caucasus (...) and just recently the A-10C II update partially broke the Vikhrs.

 

I love the Ka-50, but I can't recommend it anymore, because it's getting almost no love from the devs. Maybe BS3 is supposed to address all the issues, but brand new modules seem to have priority.

[Rabies]

Thanks for the responses.

 

It’s a sorry state of affairs that today’s combat flight simulator doesn’t have functioning AI wingman. When you think back to the beginnings of flight simulators, 30+ years ago, wingman functioned.

[Taz1004]

Yea, it's because they're trying to make it too realistic. In the past, AI were just given simple scripted task which it completed unless destroyed. Now they want the AI to be effected by same handicaps the human pilots do. Rain, fog, overcast, Sun and Moonlight... Which most of the time doesn't work because it requires too much processing power. But I guess it's their ambition to have dynamic AI for their dynamic campaign.

[BIGNEWY]

If you have an example of a wingman problem please post the shortest track possible showing it and we will take a look.

 

To say we don't care or test is wrong. I have personally spent many hours testing and reporting BS2 Campaign issues, we recently fixed over a 100 missions.

 

I understand there may be some frustration but without track replays showing an example I can not report it.

 

thanks

Edited October 12, 2020 by BIGNEWY

[Taz1004]

Do you have a list of what the 100 fixes were? I didn't notice any of the issues being fixed.

 

I'll make a track but it'll be same thing that was reported 100 times before.

[BIGNEWY]

We fixed over 100 missions with spawn location problems on FARPS for many campaign missions and instant action.

 

As mentioned if you have a problem with AI, please post a track replay showing the problem and we will take a look.

 

thanks

Edited October 12, 2020 by BIGNEWY

[Taz1004]

We fixed over 100 missions with spawn location problems on FARPS for many campaign missions and instant action.

 

As mentioned if you have a problem with AI, please post a track replay showing the problem and we will take a look.

 

thanks

 

Here's a track of AI just bouncing around when given order to attack. On first GOW campaign. ATO-A-P1.1 Target assigned was wide open and clear weather. I waited for the wingman to get in position for clear LOS before giving order. Yet it charges ahead, turns around, and bouncing around. As you requested, I tried to make it as short as possible. All mods uninstalled.

 

Ka-50_AI.trk

 

This can be reproduced on every BS2 mission. And have been reported many times. I actually can't find a mission where this doesn't happen. Yet you say as if you never seen this... Hopefully this issue will finally get some attention.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Taz1004

[Flappie]

Hi Taz. I saw your message in the other thread. Sorry for missing that one.

I've just tried twice on latest public OB (2.5.6.58125):

• Once with gear up. I ask my wingman to shoot my target. I'm engaged at the same time. My wingman shoots the target.
  
• Second time with gear down (as in our track). I ask my wingman to shoot my target. This time I'm not being engaged. My wingman shoots the target.
  

Video of my second try:

 

AIKa50wingman_attacking1.trk

AIKa50wingman_attacking2.trk

[Taz1004]

Try assigning the targets I was assigning him in my track. 4 nearest wide open targets.

 

I took control of your track and told him to attack them and does same bouncing. But when I told him to attack the one right next to the one you assigned, he did fire. So they will attack the ones that perfectly meet their attack parameter. I am not exactly sure what those parameters are but in my experience, they will not attack more than 50%.

 

I took control from around 50 second mark.

 

Attached track is continuation from your track.

Ka-50_AI2.trk

[Taz1004]

Hi Taz. I saw your message in the other thread. Sorry for missing that one.

I've just tried twice on latest public OB (2.5.6.58125):

• Once with gear up. I ask my wingman to shoot my target. I'm engaged at the same time. My wingman shoots the target.
  
• Second time with gear down (as in our track). I ask my wingman to shoot my target. This time I'm not being engaged. My wingman shoots the target.
  

Video of my second try:

 

For example, the instant mission shooting range, wingman has no problem attacking all targets in there. Where nothing shoots back and nothing is obscured.

[Flappie]

OK, I'll try again. I'll edit the mission so there are only the four targets you're talking about.

It might be linked to this "black hole" issue.

[Flappie]

You're right, the AI flight acts very strangely with the first blue group: pilots seem to spot the threats, but they approach them without firing, most of the time.

 

In the "black hole" thread, MadDog-IC told us to try without because Vikhr missiles.So here, I did equip both Ka-50 with S-13 rockets... and they didn't shoot either.

AIKa50wingman_attacking3_after_some_time.trk

AIKa50wingman_attacking4_not_attacking.trk

AIKa50wingman_attacking5_not_attacking_S13.trk

[Taz1004]

OK, I'll try again. I'll edit the mission so there are only the four targets you're talking about.

It might be linked to this "black hole" issue.

 

I do not believe it's specific area on the map as suspected on the "black hole" thread. I believe it is because too many factors effect visibility of AI pilots just as I mentioned on the other thread that lead you to this.

 

You may think that it's terrain related if the terrain you move the targets to has no cloud for example. But I'll bet you if you put cloud or overcast on the targets you were able to assign wingman to, they'll refuse to fire.

 

I've been back to DCS only about 6 months ago. And I've seen half dozen thread reporting this issue in that 6 months. Including the original poster of this thread. And saw even more threads dating back. Just as MadDog said, this existed for long time with plenty of reports with tracks.

I've personally experienced it in every Ka-50 GOW mission. It is so easy to reproduce yet it's so hard for ED to acknowledge this.

[Flappie]

It is so easy to reproduce yet it's so hard for ED to acknowledge this.

ED is investigating about the issue reported in the other thread. I'm hoping they will find what's wrong with the attack helicopters behavior.

[Taz1004]

ED is investigating about the issue reported in the other thread. I'm hoping they will find what's wrong with the attack helicopters behavior.

 

MadDog may be right about it being related to Vikhr. I used Hunter_5E's Hellfire mod and equipped my Wingman only with Hellfires and he did fire first time on those group it would not fire on with Vikhr.

 

But I think this is just one of the cause. I think there are many causes.

 

[Volk.]

In the Deployment campaign I tried earlier this year (on OpenBeta), the wingman as utterly unreliable - for scouting he'd approach way too fast after spotting threats and then only break off once engaged, and for attacking (armed with Vikhr and rockets) he'd acknowledge maybe, but not engage with any weapon systems. This is both on targets he spotted after scouting, telling him to engage my target or attempting to send datalink targets. He did choose to hover IGE in the middle of the town filled with hostiles.

I wonder if the hostile Black Shark AI is more ready to engage (you or friendly ground forces)...

[Flappie]

I wonder if the hostile Black Shark AI is more ready to engage (you or friendly ground forces)...

During my last 3 tries, I used an AI-only flight: they were as bad as wingmen can be (tracks attached in one of my previous posts). So I guess the answer to your question is "nope".