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    Hornet stick feeling in the aircraft...

    Hi all,

    Got a quick question here that might be more focused to whoever flew the real jet...

    I have several stick bases, and swap sticks according to my need. One of those, is dedicated to the hornet. It's a Virpil Warbrd with an 8cm extension and a Thrustmaster f/a18 stick on it.
    Thing is, I would like to dial the feeling closer to what you have in the jet itself by setting the closest cam profile and spring tension (although spring is an easy setting, I just put the heavier ones but since the plane is a FBW essentially, one might be surprised by lack of feedback) .
    Viral has 2 sets of cams I can use for aero sims: Linear with center bump or progressive towards hard edges without bump.

    So, the questions: - In the Jet, is the stick rather linear in it's displacement or does it get harder towards the limits of it's gimbals?
    - Is there a "bump" in the neutral position or can you move the stick freely without feeling a small "detent" when you go across the neutral psn?

    I looked at NATOPS but it's not really the kind of info to find there, the diagram of the FCS shows the stick having a pitch and roll feel spring but other then that not a lot of info on how it translates to stick movement and feeling or neutral bump in stick design.

    All planes I flew were different by design it the way it feels in your hand. The 737 for example, you can feel a small detent in neutral roll but not in pitch (due to column design obviously).
    So it would be nice if somebody can give me a hint on the hornet about this...

    Thanks in advance,

    Best regards
    Rig: MB Gigabite z390UD, CPU Intel I7 8700k, RAM 32G DDR4 3200 Gskill ripjaws, GPU MSI RTX2080SuperOC, HDD Crucial mx500 1tb M2 sata, PSU Corsair 850W, watercooling Corsair h100,

    Controlers TM f/a 18 stick on Virpil warbrd base, TM cougar f16 stick on cougar base, Cougar F16 throttle on TUSBA, ch pedals, TM cougar MFD

    27" monitor with trk IR 5 and HP Reverb HMD.


    Modules F18, F16, F86, Mig15, FW 190D9, Nellis range map, Aggr campaign, Middle East map

    #2
    I believe F/A-18C has a force sensor stick like the F-16 does, so the stick has very little actual translation or travel. I have read such sticks require considerable force for full deflection, like 25 lb.

    Comment


      #3
      Hello,
      No force sensor in the hornet, it's FBW (with backups DEL and Mech that we dont have in dcs) allright but it moves. Just look at youtube videos of the controls swipe before cat shots...

      Best regards
      Rig: MB Gigabite z390UD, CPU Intel I7 8700k, RAM 32G DDR4 3200 Gskill ripjaws, GPU MSI RTX2080SuperOC, HDD Crucial mx500 1tb M2 sata, PSU Corsair 850W, watercooling Corsair h100,

      Controlers TM f/a 18 stick on Virpil warbrd base, TM cougar f16 stick on cougar base, Cougar F16 throttle on TUSBA, ch pedals, TM cougar MFD

      27" monitor with trk IR 5 and HP Reverb HMD.


      Modules F18, F16, F86, Mig15, FW 190D9, Nellis range map, Aggr campaign, Middle East map

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by VIXEN413 View Post
        Hi all,

        Got a quick question here that might be more focused to whoever flew the real jet...

        I have several stick bases, and swap sticks according to my need. One of those, is dedicated to the hornet. It's a Virpil Warbrd with an 8cm extension and a Thrustmaster f/a18 stick on it.
        Thing is, I would like to dial the feeling closer to what you have in the jet itself by setting the closest cam profile and spring tension (although spring is an easy setting, I just put the heavier ones but since the plane is a FBW essentially, one might be surprised by lack of feedback) .
        Viral has 2 sets of cams I can use for aero sims: Linear with center bump or progressive towards hard edges without bump.

        So, the questions: - In the Jet, is the stick rather linear in it's displacement or does it get harder towards the limits of it's gimbals?
        - Is there a "bump" in the neutral position or can you move the stick freely without feeling a small "detent" when you go across the neutral psn?

        I looked at NATOPS but it's not really the kind of info to find there, the diagram of the FCS shows the stick having a pitch and roll feel spring but other then that not a lot of info on how it translates to stick movement and feeling or neutral bump in stick design.

        All planes I flew were different by design it the way it feels in your hand. The 737 for example, you can feel a small detent in neutral roll but not in pitch (due to column design obviously).
        So it would be nice if somebody can give me a hint on the hornet about this...

        Thanks in advance,

        Best regards
        I haven't flown one but I know the stick forces required increase further you go from the center.

        Comment


          #5
          All I know is that Lex thinks TMWH with its linear force is the best representation of the real thing.
          476th vFG Public Discord| 476th vFG Website

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Swiftwin9s View Post
            All I know is that Lex thinks TMWH with its linear force is the best representation of the real thing.
            Does he use an extension or a different spring if no extension? I never would have thought a stock Warthog feels like a fbw plane like the Hornet.
            Buzz

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by BuzzU View Post

              Does he use an extension or a different spring if no extension? I never would have thought a stock Warthog feels like a fbw plane like the Hornet.
              Can't remember tbh, I think he has an extension. But yeah, the centre thunk isnt right, but apparently its a price worth paying for the feeling elsewhere.
              476th vFG Public Discord| 476th vFG Website

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks all, that's already a start. So no center thunk in the hornet stick. right?
                Rig: MB Gigabite z390UD, CPU Intel I7 8700k, RAM 32G DDR4 3200 Gskill ripjaws, GPU MSI RTX2080SuperOC, HDD Crucial mx500 1tb M2 sata, PSU Corsair 850W, watercooling Corsair h100,

                Controlers TM f/a 18 stick on Virpil warbrd base, TM cougar f16 stick on cougar base, Cougar F16 throttle on TUSBA, ch pedals, TM cougar MFD

                27" monitor with trk IR 5 and HP Reverb HMD.


                Modules F18, F16, F86, Mig15, FW 190D9, Nellis range map, Aggr campaign, Middle East map

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by VIXEN413 View Post
                  Thanks all, that's already a start. So no center thunk in the hornet stick. right?
                  No 'thunk'

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Gripes323 View Post

                    I haven't flown one but I know the stick forces required increase further you go from the center.
                    Well, you made me look it up... It's a function of 'g' and AOA. When parked on the ground and hyds running, there is probably not that much change throughout the range.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Gripes323 View Post

                      Well, you made me look it up... It's a function of 'g' and AOA. When parked on the ground and hyds running, there is probably not that much change throughout the range.
                      The way I understand it, the force per distance remains the same, as does the G/AOA per force. Which means slower speeds will mean more surface movement per force in order to reach the same G. If that makes sense
                      476th vFG Public Discord| 476th vFG Website

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Swiftwin9s View Post

                        The way I understand it, the force per distance remains the same, as does the G/AOA per force. Which means slower speeds will mean more surface movement per force in order to reach the same G. If that makes sense
                        Years ago someone was explaining this to me, perhaps we were talking about a different jet

                        Anyways, w/o searching the whole NFM000... this paragraph mentions the subject:

                        IV-11-3
                        "11.1.5 Stick Force. In maneuvering flight, there is a light but constant stick force per g (about 3.5 to 4.5 pounds/g). Unlike many other aircraft, maneuvering stick forces do not vary significantly over the entire operating envelope as long as the AOA is less than AOA feedback of 22°. Where AOA feedback is active, maneuvering stick forces are increased significantly."

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by VIXEN413 View Post
                          Hello,
                          No force sensor in the hornet, it's FBW (with backups DEL and Mech that we dont have in dcs) allright but it moves. Just look at youtube videos of the controls swipe before cat shots...

                          Best regards
                          That’s not correct. The stick moves, so does the the F-15’s...and they both have a stick force sensor (base of the stick) that translates force pressure to the CAS computers and into flight control movements. It’s a typical MD/Boeing design.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Aaah so it is a force sensor unit translating movement into signal.... good to know.
                            I was thinking at a force sensing ala f16 that will register force on a device (here the stick) without alowing it to move...
                            Thanks for the info
                            Rig: MB Gigabite z390UD, CPU Intel I7 8700k, RAM 32G DDR4 3200 Gskill ripjaws, GPU MSI RTX2080SuperOC, HDD Crucial mx500 1tb M2 sata, PSU Corsair 850W, watercooling Corsair h100,

                            Controlers TM f/a 18 stick on Virpil warbrd base, TM cougar f16 stick on cougar base, Cougar F16 throttle on TUSBA, ch pedals, TM cougar MFD

                            27" monitor with trk IR 5 and HP Reverb HMD.


                            Modules F18, F16, F86, Mig15, FW 190D9, Nellis range map, Aggr campaign, Middle East map

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by VIXEN413 View Post
                              Aaah so it is a force sensor unit translating movement into signal.... good to know.
                              I was thinking at a force sensing ala f16 that will register force on a device (here the stick) without alowing it to move...
                              Thanks for the info
                              Everyone always associates force sensing to the F-16 because of the reduced movement vs other center stick jets. The reality is, many of them use relatively the same concept to talk to the flight control computers.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Rainmaker View Post

                                Everyone always associates force sensing to the F-16 because of the reduced movement vs other center stick jets. The reality is, many of them use relatively the same concept to talk to the flight control computers.
                                Viper uses pure force sensing (transducer). Hornet also uses stick position as a factor. It looks a bit more complex to me.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Gripes323 View Post

                                  Viper uses pure force sensing (transducer). Hornet also uses stick position as a factor. It looks a bit more complex to me.
                                  Yes and no. CAS is less dependent on actual stick movement. It’s using force sensors to translate the inputs. Reading a -1, NOTOPS, etc is a bit different than translating it to what is actually happening.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Rainmaker View Post

                                    Yes and no. CAS is less dependent on actual stick movement. It’s using force sensors to translate the inputs. Reading a -1, NOTOPS, etc is a bit different than translating it to what is actually happening.
                                    The Hornet's stick forces get adjusted depending on feedback from air data comp. (AOA, g) In the Viper you don't get any feedback/feel on the stick. I guess OP was mainly asking about the stick forces in the Hornet.

                                    And... as far as me reading I wish I spent more time reading... recently, I only get motivated to peek into these manuals when something comes up that stirs up my curiosity.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Gripes323 View Post

                                      The Hornet's stick forces get adjusted depending on feedback from air data comp. (AOA, g) In the Viper you don't get any feedback/feel on the stick. I guess OP was mainly asking about the stick forces in the Hornet.

                                      And... as far as me reading I wish I spent more time reading... recently, I only get motivated to peek into these manuals when something comes up that stirs up my curiosity.
                                      What is written in natops does not suggest that. As you yourself wrote, there is a constant stick force per G. Obviously we need someone who has flown it to chip in here, but the way I read that is that the G is scheduled depending on how much force you are applying to the pitch and roll feel springs, regardless of the position of the stick through its travel.

                                      So whenever you apply 7lbs the stick will move the same amount regardless of flight conditions. However the FCC will work to provide 3g, by moving the control surfaces as required to achieve that for the given flight conditions. Excluding the AOA>22 condition of course.
                                      476th vFG Public Discord| 476th vFG Website

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Swiftwin9s View Post

                                        What is written in natops does not suggest that. As you yourself wrote, there is a constant stick force per G. Obviously we need someone who has flown it to chip in here, but the way I read that is that the G is scheduled depending on how much force you are applying to the pitch and roll feel springs, regardless of the position of the stick through its travel.

                                        So whenever you apply 7lbs the stick will move the same amount regardless of flight conditions. However the FCC will work to provide 3g, by moving the control surfaces as required to achieve that for the given flight conditions. Excluding the AOA>22 condition of course.
                                        So, starting to get in the weeds here and a bit more in depth than the OP was asking but...

                                        My question with that topic is whether the -18 has a pitch ratio function as the -15 does. By design, the -15 adjusts itself so the same stick pressure gives you the same G regardless of things like speed, etc....until you get slow enough where you really can’t meet the request by the pilot. That’s one of the bigger things missing with the -15’s FM, and I don’t know if the -18 is also missing this as I don’t know if they are supposed to function in the same manner. The above gives the pilot a a good source of feedback to know where to pit the stick in order to command X amount of G regardless of where he/she is in the flight envelope, so you don’t have to steadily pull the stick back until you get what you want. The -18 is a bit different in that is has a limiter, but they could still be designed that way...or not. The books available really don’t go that deep in the weeds on it, but the above that you are mentioning kind of hints towards it. Someone with personal knowledge of the -18’s stuff may be able to clear that one up. I can only speculate based on the two airframes sharing some similarities already.

                                        Comment

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