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Bombing in the F5 is hard...

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  • #16
    I'm new to DCS and the F-5E, but messing around last night I found what seems to be a relatively reliable way to hit things with Mk 82 Snakeyes, or at least a good starting point for more experimentation. Set the gunsight to Manual mode and set a depression of 100 mils. Set the snakes up for ripple, 0.10 seconds timing. Fly at 300 ft and 400 kts, and drop when the pipper is on the target. Remember to hold the pickle until all the bombs are gone.

    That gives you enough speed and altitude for the snakes to deploy and not blow yourself up, but low enough that you should be pretty hard to hit with AAA. I haven't tested it very much yet, but with the center rack of 5 bombs I was able to take out single vehicles.

    When fully loaded the F-5 should be able to do over 400 kts if you let it accelerate for a while in straight and level flight, so you may have to slow down near the target or pop out your speedbrakes for a bit, or figure out some other mil setting for the sight for higher speed. I have read that Snakeyes have a max drop speed of 450 kts (any faster and the drag fins may not deploy correctly), although I haven't tested that in the game.

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    • #17
      Practice and do a BDA after each drop. If your dive parameters are not up to the book you can always adjust your pipper while you dive towards target. This was a practice often used in F-105's or F-4 during Vietnam when the mills where adjusted in the "chute". But you have to have the values in your head to be able to quickly adjust. Also with practice you will be able to drop under your aiming point or over depending on your dive parameters.

      It takes time to do it, but man, there's no better feeling when you put them wherever you want them to go, or when you take a column of vehicles from one end to the other with a nice bomb run. Beats any CCIP run.

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      • #18
        Hey ho,

        I just compared the MIL values of the real AF T.O. with the ones in the DCS manual.
        (T.O. 1F-5E-34-1-1-1980) I wont post it for obvious reasons.

        DCS manual says:
        20°, 1500ft, 400KIAS -> 80 MILS
        30°, 2000ft, 440KIAS -> 79 MILS

        T.O. says:
        20°, 1500ft, 400KIAS -> 120 MILS (Section VI, Table 6-10. (Sheet 3), page 6-59)
        30°, 2000ft, 440KIAS -> 96 MILS ( as above (Sheet 4), page 6-60)

        Maybe I am digging in already reported stuff, please tell me.

        Anybody knows why there is such discrepancy?
        Which ones are best to use? I want to do it by book.
        Thumb rules are welcome, I have read a few, but procedures would be ideal.
        Wish list: late DCS: GR.1 (with GR.1B) Tornado, Improved Combined Arms (like OFP/ArmA I/ArmA II), Improved Logistics
        Build: Ryzen 3800X on X570, GTX 980 Ti, 32GB DDR4-3200 | Virpil T-50CM Stick & Throttle, MFG Crosswind Pedals, TrackIR 5

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        • #19
          I wonder if the DCS/RL table differences relate to some of the Drag coefficient wonkiness that's been noticed in multiple modules.

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          • #20
            IMHO the F-5 is probably the best plane to learn manual bombing. It has a decent bomb load and the stability augmentation makes it easy to roll out on target and take a good aim. The one thing it's missing is better bombing tables (but that's common to most DCS aircraft, I think only the Mi-8 has decent tables).

            I found bombing in the L-39 and MiG-15 to be significantly harder.

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            • #21
              The P-47 would love a configurable bomb sight with a table and wants to remind you that no, the F-5 is not the hardest.

              Still, i actually find kentucky windage and a decent steep angle is easier than referncing tables, but that's me!
              ___________________________________________________________________________
              SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING * PLAYLIST

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              • #22
                Manual bombing is all about flying precisely and repeatedly, over and over and over.

                You need to approach the target with a set offset to the target itself.
                You need to approach at a set altitude.
                You need to approach at a set airspeed.
                You need to dive at a set angle.
                You need to release at a set altitude.
                You need to release at a set airspeed.

                This isn't easy to get right, not easy to do once, and not easy to do every time.

                The only way to get it right is to practice it a hell of a lot, take note of where you were imprecise, make a correction, and try again.
                Take note of where the bomb lands, and make sighting corrections to suit.

                In real life, most bombs will miss, the wind will blow them off target, the pilot will make an error, it's not easy and most will miss. That is normal, accept that and just focus on reducing the CEP (circle error probable) by being as accurate as you can and the hits will come.

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                • #23
                  The use of Tacview is highly recommended if you want to understand what parameters weren't right.

                  Practice makes perfect.
                  3rd Wing | 4/33 Vexin * VK-94
                  A furore Normannorum, libera nos Domine

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                  • #24
                    I have the real life USAF bomb tables for the F5. They dont work with DCS, because DCSs bomb ballistics are not accurately modeled.

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                    • #25
                      Another important part is error correction. It's hard to fly precisely enough to be exactly on parameters every time, but it's much easier (read: still hard, but not impossibly so) to make sure errors cancel each other out. IRL, pilots generally didn't fly the exact numbers, especially not in real combat. Rather, they'd try to get close, and correct on the fly. If you're a bit slow, release earlier, for instance. With practice, you'll gain an intuitive understanding on which way each parameter moves the impact point, and by how much.

                      Fun fact: in Vietnam, they never ran straight in. They used curved approaches, rolling out wings level at the last possible moment, pickling in the brief window that they had, before pulling out along a curve again. All to make the job harder for the guns on the ground. In that moment, they had to get everything close to right, eyeball the corrections, and pickle. Modern fighter jocks have it easy.

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                      • #26
                        It sure makes one appreciate the modern computer assisted systems like CCIP etc. Never-the-less, still a lot of fun to bomb in the F-5E3.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Dragon1-1 View Post
                          Fun fact: in Vietnam, they never ran straight in. They used curved approaches, rolling out wings level at the last possible moment, pickling in the brief window that they had, before pulling out along a curve again. All to make the job harder for the guns on the ground. In that moment, they had to get everything close to right, eyeball the corrections, and pickle. Modern fighter jocks have it easy.
                          Yep, been there, done that in 1970 in the F-100.

                          http://theseverts.com/Phan%20Rang%20News%20207.pdf
                          Last edited by Bob1943; 10-13-2020, 02:51 AM.
                          https://vimeo.com/bobward/f-100-comb...d-vietnam-1970

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bob1943 View Post
                            Yep, been there, done that in 1970 in the F-100.

                            http://theseverts.com/Phan%20Rang%20News%20207.pdf
                            Wow. Surprised to find this. Kudos and thanks.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bob1943 View Post
                              Yep, been there, done that in 1970 in the F-100.

                              http://theseverts.com/Phan%20Rang%20News%20207.pdf
                              WOW. How close you worked with the FAC's during your deployment, and can you describe how they used to operate?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SorelRo View Post
                                WOW. How close you worked with the FAC's during your deployment, and can you describe how they used to operate?
                                I give a brief discussion of our interaction with the Forward Air Controllers (FAC) on page 11 in the Phan Rang article.

                                If a FAC was involved in our mission, we would be given a radio frequency (as part of our pre-flight briefing) on which to contact the FAC. We would usually switch over to this frequency about 50 miles from the target area and begin talking to the FAC to get visual cues (hills, rivers, etc.) to help us locate him and the target area. He would be looking up for us and we would be looking down for him.

                                Once we had made a successful rendezvous, he would give us some target info and confirm the ordinance that we were carrying. He would specify the order in which he wanted the ordinance dropped. Unless there were some obvious ground references for the target location, the FAC would usually fire a smoke rocket towards the target and then give us drop instructions relative to that smoke, e.g., "50 meters east of my smoke". If friendly ground troops were involved, they would usually pop smoke as well to identify their position.

                                Before rolling in, we would have to confirm that we had both the smoke and FAC in sight. He would then clear us in hot. At that point we would make sure the sight was uncaged with the correct mil depression dialed in, arm the appropriate wing pylon stations and call "In hot". The FAC would then say "Have you in sight, Cleared hot". After each ordinance impact, the FAC would radio an estimate of where we hit relative to the intended target, e.g., he might say "Blade 2, hit 20 meters south of leader's impact".

                                We always flew circular patterns around the target, keeping the FAC in sight at all times, although he was usually at a much lower altitude than we were. During our ordinance deliveries, we always flew the curvilinear approach, only rolling wings level for a second or two before hitting the pickle button. Then it was "jink right - jink left", etc. coming off the target. We never flew a straight line, especially during low-level drops like napalm and high-drag bombs.

                                http://theseverts.com/Phan%20Rang%20News%20207.pdf
                                Last edited by Bob1943; 10-15-2020, 10:18 PM.
                                https://vimeo.com/bobward/f-100-comb...d-vietnam-1970

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