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    #61
    Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
    What was the reason they built the Viper to take 9G's all day and the Hornet to only 7.5G's?
    Speculating...

    At 360 knots and 7.5g you get about the same turnrate as 430 knots and 9g, plus the advantage of a smaller turning circle. The higher aspect ratio of the Hornet's wings is suited for those slower airspeeds.
    P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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      #62
      Originally posted by gavagai View Post
      Speculating...

      At 360 knots and 7.5g you get about the same turnrate as 430 knots and 9g, plus the advantage of a smaller turning circle. The higher aspect ratio of the Hornet's wings is suited for those slower airspeeds.
      Yes, and the Hornet can turn longer and bleed off less speed too.
      Buzz

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        #63
        Squeezing 9G at 450kts in real combat enviroment makes the plane a lot harder to kill with any weapon than one making 7.5G at 350kts - regardless of similar turn rate - real combat enviroment is rarely a honorable 1v1 duel.

        It also gives the plane a lot easier time disengaging accelerating from 450kts to supersonic after unloading the plane or chasing enemy which is trying to disengage - if you start at 350kts the chances an enemy will flee or catch you are significantly bigger.

        Maintaining 450kts allows also starting vertical maneuvers - like loop over the top. Maintaining 350kts barely gives any reserve.

        Hornet's 7.5G is just a compromise - not some design feature. Non naval Hornets for Switzerland with uniform wing spar due to non-folded wings allows it to squeeze more G savely than naval variant with folded wings.

        The whole 20 degrees low sweep angle wing of the Hornet is a compromise which makes plane slower and lowering it's acceleration due to increased drag but this wing was needed to achieve low speed carrier approach. Non naval planes with conventional aerodynamic like F-15, F-16, MiG-29, Su-27 etc. - all have moderate wing sweep angle ~40-45 degrees.
        Last edited 10-19-2020, 03:38 PM.

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          #64
          Originally posted by bies View Post
          Squeezing 9G at 450kts in real combat enviroment makes the plane a lot harder to kill with any weapon than one making 7.5G at 350kts - regardless of similar turn rate - real combat enviroment is rarely a honorable 1v1 duel.

          It also gives the plane a lot easier time disengaging accelerating from 450kts to supersonic after unloading the plane or chasing enemy which is trying to disengage - if you start at 350kts the chances an enemy will flee or catch you are significantly bigger.

          Maintaining 450kts allows also starting vertical maneuvers - like loop over the top. Maintaining 350kts barely gives any reserve.

          Hornet's 7.5G is just a compromise - not some design feature. Non naval Hornets for Switzerland with uniform wing spar due to non-folded wings allows it to squeeze more G savely than naval variant with folded wings.

          The whole 20 degrees low sweep angle wing of the Hornet is a compromise which makes plane slower and lowering it's acceleration due to increased drag but this wing was needed to achieve low speed carrier approach. Non naval planes with conventional aerodynamic like F-15, F-16, MiG-29, Su-27 etc. - all have moderate wing sweep angle ~40-45 degrees.
          How long can you hold 9G at 450kts? Not the G's but the speed.
          Buzz

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            #65
            Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
            How long can you hold 9G at 450kts? Not the G's but the speed.
            You can hold both until you run out of fuel or blackout.
            P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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              #66
              No, you can't do it until you run out of fuel but it won't be long before you black out. Meanwhile the Hornet just keeps on turning and not losing much speed.

              The Viper bleeds speed too fast to take advantgae of the higher G's it can pull. Add in blacking out too early and it makes the Hornet harder to beat than it should.
              Buzz

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                #67
                Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
                How long can you hold 9G at 450kts? Not the G's but the speed.
                Up to about 10-15,000ft - in classic big mouth GE F-16C block 30 in light AA configuration? As long as pilot withstand the G force. Look at F-16 energy maneuvering chart - is can sustain 9G untill the end of gas up to 10-15k ft - bviously it depends on configuration, mass, even weather to some degree.

                If you are not aware you can even accelerate - squeezing 9G at the same time - if you start pulling above 450kts at low alt.

                F-16 is designed specifically to generate very low drag in turn, unstable configuration helps also decreasing AoA needed for specific G in contrast to stable F-15 or MiG-29. Some overweight strike variants like block 40 and 50 have harder time with additional mass neded for multirole applications, but the most common C variant - Block 30 and A Block 5/10 are universally praised by their pilots being the strongest dogfighters in existence untll Eurofighter entered service around 2004. F-16C Block 30 having the best T/W ratio excesive power and acceleration, better than MiG-29 or F-15, and Block 5/10 with "small tail" paying off in dogfight and having the lowest wing loading and instantenious turn rate among F-16 family.
                Last edited 10-19-2020, 06:02 PM.

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                  #68
                  I just tested. At 450knots in DCS you can sustain ~7.5g, so I was wrong. Have to get up to 500 knots to hold almost 9g.

                  This was at sea level with default weather on Caucasus map.

                  ----------------------

                  At 450 knots Hornet holds ~8g, with the paddle (get your pitchforks), so that is the issue right there. The F-18 is beating the F-16 at its own game.

                  A few others sustained at ~100ft asl @ [450knots, 500knots]

                  F-18: 8.0g, 9.0g
                  F-16: 7.5g, 9.0g
                  F-15: 7.1g, 8.0g
                  M2K: 6.9g, 8.0g
                  Last edited 10-19-2020, 06:24 PM.
                  P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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                    #69
                    Originally posted by bies View Post
                    Up to about 10-15,000ft - in classic big mouth GE F-16C block 30 in light AA configuration? As long as pilot withstand the G force. Look at F-16 energy maneuvering chart - is can sustain 9G untill the end of gas up to 10-15k ft - bviously it depends on configuration, mass, even weather to some degree.

                    If you are not aware you can even accelerate - squeezing 9G at the same time - if you start pulling above 450kts at low alt.

                    F-16 is designed specifically to generate very low drag in turn, unstable configuration helps also decreasing AoA needed for specific G in contrast to stable F-15 or MiG-29. Some overweight strike variants like block 40 and 50 have harder time with additional mass neded for multirole applications, but the most common C variant - Block 30 and A Block 5/10 are universally praised by their pilots being the strongest dogfighters in existence untll Eurofighter entered service around 2004. F-16C Block 30 having the best T/W ratio excesive power and acceleration, better than MiG-29 or F-15, and Block 5/10 with "small tail" paying off in dogfight and having the lowest wing loading and instantenious turn rate among F-16 family.
                    I agree with what you're saying but you can't be talking about the DCS Viper? Even leaving out the part about a block 30. So, yes in BMS and the real plane.

                    The DCS Viper appears to lose speed too fast in high G turns. If i'm wrong i'll accept it but if DCS is right then BMS is wrong. I'd sure like to know which one is right.
                    Buzz

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by gavagai View Post
                      I just tested. At 450knots in DCS you can sustain ~7.5g, so I was wrong. Have to get up to 500 knots to hold almost 9g.

                      This was at sea level with default weather on Caucasus map.

                      ----------------------

                      At 450 knots Hornet holds ~8g, with the paddle (get your pitchforks), so that is the issue right there. The F-18 is beating the F-16 at its own game.

                      A few others sustained at ~100ft asl @ [450knots, 500knots]

                      F-18: 8.0g, 9.0g
                      F-16: 7.5g, 9.0g
                      F-15: 7.1g, 8.0g
                      M2K: 6.9g, 8.0g
                      Thanks for testing.
                      Buzz

                      Comment


                        #71
                        The Hornet modeled in DCS could actually sustain higher turn rates than a Block 50 Viper. This is based on real world flight test. In an old document about the Super Hornet and the -402 motored Hornet you can see the 2 AAM 50% fuel sustained turn rates and when you look at the Hornet vs the HAF Block 50 Viper manual the Hornet does better at low altitude but worse as altitude goes up.

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                          #72
                          Yeah, Hornets aren't happy up high but you won't find a good Hornet pilot up there in a turn fight.
                          Buzz

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                            #73
                            Call me crazy, but doesn't this EM chart show 9g at 430 knots at sea level, with about 23deg/s sustained turn? (this is the ps = 0 line)

                            redacted

                            Oh boy, our Viper would be a dogfighting monster then. I hope ED continues to work on the flight model.
                            Last edited 10-19-2020, 07:21 PM.
                            P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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                              #74
                              Gavagai, be careful posting charts like that, remember rule 1.16.

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                                #75
                                Originally posted by Hummingbird View Post
                                Gavagai, be careful posting charts like that, remember rule 1.16.
                                Crap, are you serious? I can get in trouble for posting random EM diagrams from the internet?
                                P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by darkman222 View Post
                                  @hummingbird: How do you "ban" the paddle on your server? By just advising the people not to use it? Or is there an actual code for that?
                                  Well firstly we rely on honesty and good sportsmanship, if that doesn't work then we're helped by the fact that abuse of the paddle is incredibly obvious.

                                  In our competitions however we go a step further and have a guy monitor the aircraft, looking for large overshoots in G that are sustained. Brief spikes in G I don't call as a breach of rules, since they have no effect on the fight anyway and could easily be due to a lot of other technical reasons.

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                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by gavagai View Post
                                    Crap, are you serious? I can get in trouble for posting random EM diagrams from the internet?
                                    Yeah, I've been in trouble quite a few times now because of it, as it's not easy to determine what is allowed and what isn't. I've posted several such charts one day (that are still left standing), only to get warned and my post removed the next for something similar. So to be safe I'd just refrain from posting any charts tbh, that's the conclusion I've come to atleast.

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                                      #78
                                      I'm not dogfighting in the Viper until the flight model is fixed & basically finished. Not interested in learning bad habits.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by Spurts View Post
                                        The Hornet modeled in DCS could actually sustain higher turn rates than a Block 50 Viper. This is based on real world flight test. In an old document about the Super Hornet and the -402 motored Hornet you can see the 2 AAM 50% fuel sustained turn rates and when you look at the Hornet vs the HAF Block 50 Viper manual the Hornet does better at low altitude but worse as altitude goes up.
                                        I read this document, and I am pretty sure you mistook something.

                                        A 402 motored hornet C with 60% fuel, 2 amraams and 2 aim9s sustains 19.2deg/sec at sea level. A F-16C-50 with same fuel and with 6 amraams sustains 18.5deg/sec. Considering the the loadout difference, they are basically the same.

                                        A 402 motored hornet C with 60% fuel, 2 amraams and 2 aim9s sustains 12.3deg/sec at 15000 feet, while in DCS it sustains 13deg/sec. I am pretty sure the DCS hornet is overperformming by 8%.

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                                          #80
                                          My biggest problem with the Viper right now is that it seems to be very sluggish in roll. Not only the rate is less than I'd expect, but there seems to be a slight delay between stick deflection and the actual roll starting. Is anyone else getting this, too? Other planes, including the friggin' A-10, don't feel like this.

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