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Your latest experiences with the updated F16s dogfighting potential

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    #41
    Having a guns only fight isn't very realistic and is a video game thing. With that in mind. The Viper can pull 9G's. Why is it unfair for the Hornet to do the same thing?

    It's just air quake and you win anyway you can. Do you really thing if a Viper had a paddle that allowed 11 G's that it wouldn't be used?
    Buzz

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      #42
      Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
      Having a guns only fight isn't very realistic and is a video game thing. With that in mind. The Viper can pull 9G's. Why is it unfair for the Hornet to do the same thing?

      It's just air quake and you win anyway you can. Do you really thing if a Viper had a paddle that allowed 11 G's that it wouldn't be used?
      In my opinion it isn't unfair the Hornet can pull 9 G's, what's unfair is that the F-16 doesn't have an advantage at high G's due to the reclined seat + positive pressure oxygen mask. Furthermore the F-16 is currently underperforming, making it even more of an uphill battle for the Viper jock.

      As such, on our servers (BFM/ACM clinic), we currently limit the Hornet to the limits the aircraft allows without using the paddle.

      As for when these things get corrected, we might allow the paddle again (although I find it strange the F/A-18C outperforms the F-16 in STR at high speed), depends on what people in general say (we have a good bunch of RL jocks in there).

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        #43
        Originally posted by Hummingbird View Post
        In my opinion it isn't unfair the Hornet can pull 9 G's, what's unfair is that the F-16 doesn't have an advantage at high G's due to the reclined seat + positive pressure oxygen mask. Furthermore the F-16 is currently underperforming, making it even more of an uphill battle for the Viper jock.

        As such, on our servers (BFM/ACM clinic), we currently limit the Hornet to the limits the aircraft allows without using the paddle.

        As for when these things get corrected, we might allow the paddle again (although I find it strange the F/A-18C outperforms the F-16 in STR at high speed), depends on what people in general say (we have a good bunch of RL jocks in there).

        I agree completely. All I ever ask for is an accurate FM. After that, I can live with any weaknesses the real plane has.
        Buzz

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          #44
          I absolutely love dogfighting in the viper as it currently stands. I've got 100 hours in this model now, and I can't find anything to complain about. Turning fights down low are exhilarating, and you need to combine throttle and brakes to stay in the envelope. One other post mentioned staying above 450 kts, and I would say 350 is where I draw the line. I never allow myself to get into the turning fight because there are quite a few other models that can outturn the viper. Use your lightness and speed to gain distance for flyby runs.
          ----------------------

          Modules: Nevada, Caucasus, Su-25T, F-16C, F/A-18C, Persian Gulf, TF-51D, Syria, Open Beta
          140GB of goodness, and counting.

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            #45
            Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
            Having a guns only fight isn't very realistic and is a video game thing.
            And I find all of the spamraam servers pretty boring. Setting up grinds with volleys of 120s is realistic but snooze-inducing.
            P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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              #46
              Originally posted by gavagai View Post
              And I find all of the spamraam servers pretty boring. Setting up grinds with volleys of 120s is realistic but snooze-inducing.
              Split the difference and do ACM with missiles. It's over fast but never boring.
              Buzz

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                #47
                If spAMRAAM is boring and guns only not realistic - play 1980s with skill based SARH + dogfights with AIM-9/guns.

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                  #48
                  True, IR missiles are fun, and the Viper excels with them.

                  Originally posted by bies View Post
                  If spAMRAAM is boring and guns only not realistic - play 1980s with skill based SARH + dogfights with AIM-9.
                  Yes, that is why I want the F-16 to be able to employ the Sparrow (so sue me).
                  P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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                    #49
                    F-16 radar wasn't able to guide Sparrow.
                    The only variant of F-16 able to fire Sparrow was specially modified F-16A ADF with radar modified to guide Sparrow missile and two under wing racks modified to carry Sparrows and it's electronics - this variant was used only in small numbers by US dir defense in the continental US but it was quickly replaced by standard F-16C with AMRAAM.

                    No F-16C was using Sparrow - only F-16A with different and modified radar.
                    Last edited 10-18-2020, 08:02 PM.

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                      #50
                      Originally posted by bies View Post
                      F-16 radar wasn't able to guide Sparrow.
                      The only variant of F-16 able to fire Sparrow was specially modified F-16A ADF with radar modified to guide Sparrow missile and two under wing racks modified to carry Sparrows and it's electronics - this variant was used only in small numbers by US dir defense in the continental US but it was quickly replaced by standard F-16C with AMRAAM.
                      Yes, I know, I've heard all about it. Other F-16Cs can carry it; I want a FrankenViper.
                      P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Originally posted by Hummingbird View Post
                        As such, on our servers (BFM/ACM clinic), we currently limit the Hornet to the limits the aircraft allows without using the paddle.
                        And it is quite obvious when paddle is being used. Guys get really spun up if you point it out as well. I suppose it's not surprising, because by pointing it out you're in effect delegitimizing/pointing out their skill deficiency. Egos should be checked at the door. IMO paddle switch is a crutch. If you're someone who uses it consistently, and without it, you're finding yourself unable to convert to a CZ/WEZ (and you're also someone who is trying to employ authentically - not someone who's interested in flying like an arcade game - there's room for everyone in the sim, but I'm not addressing those people here), then you may want to revisit some basics. Start looking at basic mech like your TCE to help fix your starting geometry might be a good place to start.
                        Cheers,

                        Rick
                        CSEL\CMEL\IFR
                        Certified Airplane Nut

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                          #52
                          Today I did a quick test with g effects disabled and it still seems to be the major F16 issue. When in the F18 you'd almost never Gloc because of its 7.5 G design. If it is true that this pilot constantly pulled 9 Gs for 23 seconds in real life. Try this in DCS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpEgHZoUfOU
                          Nobody would allow to show such a performance if a real pilot was struggling to stay awake for that amount of time Gs being pulled.

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                            #53
                            The real issue here is that there has never been an incident where a RL Hornet pilot has had his life on the line in actual combat and decided that he had to use the paddle switch to save his life or to gain an advantage to kill an opponent.

                            I am 100% certain that there would be no hesitation on a pilots part to use it under extraordinary circumstances. As of now there are disciplinary consequences for a pilot that pulls it during peacetime as it is pretty much put in place because if it pulled more than 7.5g on a regular basis the life of the airframe would be shortened drastically and all the legacy Charlie models would have been retired in the early 2000s if not sooner.

                            In our virtual world, every fight is “do or die” and you exploit whatever advantages you have to win. Just so it’s out there and known, when I am flying the Hornet I will not hesitate to use the paddle switch or the spin recovery switch at any given time to gain an advantage and will not enter a competition where it is not allowed. If people choose not to fly with me because I use them it is ok with me as well.

                            If you choose to fly an aircraft against me that has disadvantage either real world or by incorrect modeling, that is your choice. But don’t complain lol.
                            Alienware Aurora R5 i7-6700k liquid cooled,4.0ghz overclocked to 4.4ghz, 32gb 2133mhz memory, 512gb SSD/1tb HD, EVGA RTX 2080ti FTW3 Ultra, 32" Asus 2560x1440 display, 32" Acer HD monitor, Thrustmaster Warthog stick and throttle, CH Pro Pedals.

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                              #54
                              Originally posted by 000rick000 View Post
                              And it is quite obvious when paddle is being used. Guys get really spun up if you point it out as well. I suppose it's not surprising, because by pointing it out you're in effect delegitimizing/pointing out their skill deficiency. Egos should be checked at the door. IMO paddle switch is a crutch. If you're someone who uses it consistently, and without it, you're finding yourself unable to convert to a CZ/WEZ (and you're also someone who is trying to employ authentically - not someone who's interested in flying like an arcade game - there's room for everyone in the sim, but I'm not addressing those people here), then you may want to revisit some basics. Start looking at basic mech like your TCE to help fix your starting geometry might be a good place to start.
                              All that finger pointing at the Hornet and its paddle. It has nothing on the F-15. Read 'em and weep.

                              Attached Files
                              Last edited 10-19-2020, 01:58 AM.
                              P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

                              Comment


                                #55
                                For real life training dogfights and direct comparition between F-16 and F/A-18 check C.W. Lemoine "Mover" channel. He flew both types.

                                IIRC what he told was F-16 easily outrates and outaccelerates the Hornet. Marking he was flying F-16C Block 30, lighter and more maneuverable GE engine 1980s variant than our multirole Block 50.

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                                  #56
                                  I feel like I’m asking a dumb question here. But what is the paddle everyone referring about on the F-18

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by Blinky.ben View Post
                                    I feel like I’m asking a dumb question here. But what is the paddle everyone referring about on the F-18
                                    FLCS override paddle on the bottom of the stick, gives you an extra 30-33% more G available assuming you have the speed to make the lift.

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                                      #58
                                      Is the g-override of the paddle modeled?
                                      ----------------------

                                      Modules: Nevada, Caucasus, Su-25T, F-16C, F/A-18C, Persian Gulf, TF-51D, Syria, Open Beta
                                      140GB of goodness, and counting.

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Haha. F15 with 15 Gs? That aircraft will stay grounded for a long time.

                                        In DCS everything is modeled. The g-override paddle. The F18 limiter, being too slow to catch up a quick pull, allowing to over g the F18 even without the paddle. The fatigue of over g-ing the F14, which will fall apart at some point. But maybe not soon enough The only thing I am not sure about is the F15 and the flaming cliffs series. Might be too old to have it modelled. So some people thend to fly the F15 like an RC plane.


                                        @hummingbird: How do you "ban" the paddle on your server? By just advising the people not to use it? Or is there an actual code for that?



                                        Although I started this thread to find out your guys current opinion about the F16, I have another idea.
                                        How difficult could it be to read out the Gs an aircraft is pulling on a multiplayer server.

                                        I know from the "justdogfight" server, if someone fires a 9X which has a random failure rate, it will be shown to all the other players. So people know someone is not really interested in dogfighting
                                        Maybe it would be cool if the same message would be displayed if an aircraft over gs.

                                        I Imagine it would go like this: F14 is on your six. Message appears: "F14 player xyz is pulling 12 Gs" Then you get shot down anyway. But everybody can make up his own mind about that kill later.
                                        Last edited 10-19-2020, 01:58 PM.

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                                          #60
                                          What was the reason they built the Viper to take 9G's all day and the Hornet to only 7.5G's?
                                          Buzz

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