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Your latest experiences with the updated F16s dogfighting potential

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    #21
    Thank you! Your detailed answer earlier already looked to me like the most promising thing to try out next time against an F18. Sustained rate fights never worked for me.
    Last edited 10-17-2020, 11:23 PM.

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      #22
      Sorry I dont get it. Where can I look up "Korean 3-3 for the viper" ?

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        #23
        Google Korean air Force f-16 basic employment manual 3-3.

        Good luck.

        Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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          #24
          Thanks! Seems like lots of good information there. Still working on finishing Robert L. Shaws book though

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            #25
            Darkman,

            The Korean 3-3 is a lot more updated that Shaw's text. It is fairly close to the current (not publically available) USAF viper 3-3, and in some ways more detailed. The Korean one, from 2005, doesn't get into gameplans to defeat highoff boresight missile shots nor does it explain BVR well, but otherwise they are very close. I would recommend that to anyone trying to learn to fly and fight in the viper.

            There is also a Norwegian one out there with some subtle differences. I like that one for defensive bfm gameplans.

            Good luck.

            Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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              #26
              Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
              Real pilots are saying the Viper's FM is accurate?
              Yes. We had long discussion with Nick on the othre post. He said WAGS was with his friend who is Viper pilot with some 4000 hours flight time. Says the Viper FM was accurate.

              But we didn`t know how they were verifying this, they didn`t provide any details afterwards.

              Well viper still in EA stage right ? At least the FLCS could use some update for sure.
              sigpic
              I9-9900K-Gigabyte 2080Ti Gaming OC, 32G DDR4000 RAM,
              Track IR5, HOTAS Cougar + über Nxt Hall Sensor Mod, Slaw Device RX Viper

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                #27
                I am sure ED still will work on the F16 a lot. And fine tune it. I just have the feeling they released it too early. But its legit to me as they need money to produce it.
                @skyblazer I did a quick test against an AI Mig29. With your advice. Seems to me, it really helps to avoid sustained turn fights and to get a lot more angles with that technique. Which makes sense to me.

                No one wants to sit in a cockpit and pull and pull. It feels about right to use a technique which goes: pull pull pull. Then unload, the pilot recovers, then again pull pull pull. It also saves a lot of fuel too


                I feel that I learned something special in just a few minutes. Thank you Sir!
                Last edited 10-18-2020, 12:30 AM.

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                  #28
                  Yup.... You don't need to revert to that sustained turn plan until your turn circles are aligned and you are on the floor. Once there.... You will probably lose to a DCS hornet because they have slightly better rate ability. So.... If you have a fox-2, this is where you pull nose on to threaten them and make them respect it with an IRMD, or die ..... Doesn't work guns only, lol.

                  Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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                    #29
                    With that technique I just won against the Ace AI Mig29 100% of the time for at least more than 10 fights in a row and one hour now. It went up, gameplan worked, Mig29 went oblique it worked, Mig got on my tail, well took some more time, but still worked. This was just the secret ingredient I was looking for. Thank you so much again. Lets see how it turns out online the next days. But that proves that it seems to be true that the F16 needs a lot of expertise to fight properly in it. Wich makes DCS really shine compared to the "other" F16 simulator.
                    Last edited 10-18-2020, 01:38 AM.

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                      #30
                      Originally posted by skyblazer1 View Post
                      The hornet seems to be able to out rate the viper in a sustained rate fight. But, the viper can hit 9Gs briefly, where the hornet is limited to 7.5 Gs.

                      So.... A good gameplan would be to try and gain angles at each merge with a lead turn, while fighting 2 circle (taking advantage of turn circle shrink) and gaining energy with an unloaded acceleration between merges.

                      Don't do what growling sidewinder did in his video... That was a lot of wasted time -- the guy really has a very basic understanding of this stuff. Instead, start at .82 mach, perform a limiter pull at TCE to gain angles (you can hit 9Gs and the hornet can only hit 7.5.). Your turn circles will shrink as you slow down. Viper should slow about 100-125 knots in that lead turn. But, you now have to drive to the next merge. Unload with the bandit at 1 or 2 clock positions above your nose. Get back to 400-450 knots, and do it again. 2 or 3 of those and you will be in the control zone -- then you just need to be aware of the hornet's defensive ditch gameplan and not fall for the bait.

                      For reference, look at the Korean 3-3 for the viper and check out the turn circle shrink section in the BFM chapter.

                      Caveat, this doesn't work against a 9X capable bandit.... You need another gameplan for that. If you guys do this with 9Xs, you end up with a simultaneous death at the 2nd merge.



                      Dances
                      V65th AGRS



                      Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
                      Sorry I missed this. Thanks for posting, gonna try it out. I clearly have a lot to learn too.

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                        #31
                        Another issue with dogfighting in the Viper is that when you max pull, the G's just roll smoothly to about 7g or so then gradually increases to between 8.7g-9g.

                        I think the current modelling of how long it takes to get to 9g is incorrect. Especially when there are documented pilot interviews that state that you have to be ready for high G load because it gets to 9g so quick.

                        The Hornet gives you 7.5g almost instantly and if your pulling the limiter it will give you 10.5 then a little less almost instantly.

                        Thats a good little chunk of degrees of turn rate lost for the Viper compared to the Hornet especially considering that the as you keep the turn going and bleed off speed, the Viper has an alpha limiter that will start kicking in while the Hornet just gets to keep pulling.

                        My opinion is that the Viper is slightly undertuned in certain areas of FM and FCS and the Hornet is slightly over-powered in certain areas.

                        Then you have the realistic G setting that is clearly not accurate either. A well trained pilot should be able to sustain a rapid onset 9g turn for at least one full turn if not more as is clearly documented all over the internet...
                        Alienware Aurora R5 i7-6700k liquid cooled,4.0ghz overclocked to 4.4ghz, 32gb 2133mhz memory, 512gb SSD/1tb HD, EVGA RTX 2080ti FTW3 Ultra, 32" Asus 2560x1440 display, 32" Acer HD monitor, Thrustmaster Warthog stick and throttle, CH Pro Pedals.

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                          #32
                          Money is on the money.

                          Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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                            #33
                            Putting the FM discussion aside, my experience is that the DCS F-16 only has the advantage against the Hornet at 450 knots and above.

                            Take the fight uphill in a climbing spiral at 480-500 kts (~8-9g) and there is no way he can follow. This works pretty well against the Mirage, too. Once you get above him you should win.

                            Don't attempt this against the F-14 or F-15.
                            P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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                              #34
                              Gavagai, that may work against a lot of people in DCS, but it is a BFM error for a few reasons, and opens you up to a big WEZ.

                              The counter to your 2 circle vertical spiral from an aircraft with less power would not be to follow you up, but to barber pole up, putting their lift vector half way between you and the horizon. As you come back down at the next merge, the bandit has conserved energy for a lead turn, and gains angles on you (and has God's G for a slice back while you are fighting that G), and a hornet may gain enough angles to enter the CZ. Against a hornet who follows you up 1:1.... Yeah, that could work. But again, it's a BFM error because you aren't maneuvering in relation to the bandit, and if that bandit has a sidewinder (which you would assume) you've now opened yourself up to a big WEZ. I know a lot of guys here fight "guns only" though... Just know you won't see any real world gameplans for guns only fighting. You have to assume the bandit has a heater.

                              But you should test it out and see what happens ..... Have a buddy fly that climbing spiral, then you only follow up half way. I bet you'll have a big advantage after the 2nd merge.

                              Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
                              Last edited 10-18-2020, 06:33 AM.

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                                #35
                                ED have admitted the DCS F-16 FM is underperforming, their own charts posted in their aerodynamics paper shows it too, and they've reported that they're working on it.

                                Currently the biggest problems plaqueing the DCS F-16 are
                                1. STR performance lacking below 0.5 Mach
                                2. ITR performance lacking between 0.45-0.68 mach, and again below 0.4 mach (in other words, it's mostly lacking here, and it's most likely connected with issue nr.3)
                                3. G-onset rate being too low (takes quite a while to hit 9 G's at the speeds where it's possible due to the FLCS being too limiting on control authority/pitch rate)

                                Finally there's the global issue of G tolerance in DCS, where currently we're left having to deal with a rather whimpy pilot model only capable of just catching a glimpse of 9 G before he passes out. In real life the average USAF pilot is able to withstand 9 G's for 45 sec at a time, in a normal straight seat and without a positive pressure oxygen mask. An F-16 pilot enjoys the advantage of a reclined seat + a positive pressure oxygen mask, with the reclined seating position alone adding at least 0.8 G's of extra G tolerance according to multiple USAAF studies. Hence the average F-16 pilot should be able to endure even more than 45 sec at a time at 9 G.


                                Originally posted by gavagai View Post
                                Putting the FM discussion aside, my experience is that the DCS F-16 only has the advantage against the Hornet at 450 knots and above.

                                Take the fight uphill in a climbing spiral at 480-500 kts (~8-9g) and there is no way he can follow. This works pretty well against the Mirage, too. Once you get above him you should win.

                                Don't attempt this against the F-14 or F-15.
                                That becomes a problem if G effects are on, and/or if the F/A-18 jock is using the paddle, in which case he will outrate you going at any similar speed.
                                Last edited 10-18-2020, 08:20 AM.

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                                  #36
                                  I guess the question becomes, what kind of experience are you looking for when you fly? Is it just a game or are more a serious simmer? Let's assume it's a closely authentic experience you're looking for, since it sounds that way with the inputs given this thread thus far. The problem with finding the "guns only" BFM solution is that it typically will ignore other winning or losing cues. For example. The above suggestion. While it may "work" it also sounds like you are widening the TC and now bringing the fight back outside Rmin against a blue sky. While the cues are saying winning for guns only, they are screaming "losing" against an offemder who still has AAMs. So doing that would be a BFM error. It's the same reason Skyblazer1 mentioned that TC shrink is not meant to fight a HOBS equipped adversary. Really good post C.
                                  Cheers,

                                  Rick
                                  CSEL\CMEL\IFR
                                  Certified Airplane Nut

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                                    #37
                                    @skyblazer1

                                    Alot of people do fly 1v1 guns only, myself included. So for that demographic the flight performance matters significantly...

                                    You are 100% correct about the BFM errors. In DCS however and possibly to a certain extent in RL, the Hornet should always win a heater fight at an equal merge.

                                    Using 9M or 9X/helmet sight the Hornet will always be able to pull more lead first and take the shot regardless of 1 circle or 2 circle horizontal or vertical merges and the Viper would always have to honor the threat and defend against the incoming missile before he could fire, unless he sacrificed himself and just took the shot for a 1:1 exchange.

                                    As far as the climbing spiral, its not really a wise manuever at an equal merge because early in the manuever the Hornet will always be able to pull lead for the shot. However if the opportunity was missed early then the advantage would transition to the Viper.

                                    My best success in Viper vs Hornet has always been to get the Hornet slow first then use the Vipers acceleration to extend vertically and come back down on top.

                                    As far as flying the Hornet full out using G limiter, there is no real hope of the Viper winning. And it gets worse as the fuel load lightens because in a 1 circle fight the seperation is just not there for the Viper to ever rate its nose onto the Hornet.
                                    Alienware Aurora R5 i7-6700k liquid cooled,4.0ghz overclocked to 4.4ghz, 32gb 2133mhz memory, 512gb SSD/1tb HD, EVGA RTX 2080ti FTW3 Ultra, 32" Asus 2560x1440 display, 32" Acer HD monitor, Thrustmaster Warthog stick and throttle, CH Pro Pedals.

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                                      #38
                                      Yes ED is working on the F16 and it is getting better every update it gets. So my question was just about a guns only dogfight against a guy who plays fair, and does not paddle switch. The sim only gets as real as the people treating the jets with real life procedures, which is of course staying in the g limits.

                                      Apparently the F16 is getting there where you can play its advantages. Still not as expected but hey, let ED go on programming and see what that gives.
                                      In a heat seeker with guns environment the F16 already shows many advantages.

                                      That was why I was asking explicitly for guns only advice.
                                      Last edited 10-18-2020, 10:54 AM.

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                                        #39
                                        Another thing is we don't have the most produced C variant dogfighter Block 30 many real pilots were acustomed with this one (i.e. C.W. Lemoine), but half ton heavier ground attack SEAD Block 50.

                                        Block 50 having very similar GE engine was half ton heavier, new avionics and reinforced structure to haul more bombs.

                                        F-16C Block 30 from 1980s had better acceleration, climb rate, sustained and instantenious turn rate, higher T/W and lower wing loading than Block 50.
                                        On the other hand we have the most maneuverable Hornet variant - big motor Charlie.

                                        According to pilots opinion Block 50 still should outturn F/A-18C rather easily.
                                        Last edited 10-18-2020, 05:05 PM.

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                                          #40
                                          @skyblazer, this thread is about guns only combat per the OP flying on just dogfight.

                                          Anyway, it is a dynamic thing and you always adjust based on what the other guy is doing. 90% will just attempt pure pursuit, and the ones who don't can be countered in other ways.
                                          P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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