Can't get engines to start in A-10C cold and dark start

[gulfcoastfella]

I'm trying to learn how to start the A-10C from cold and dark. Everything's going fine until it's time to ignite the engines. I've followed all the items in the checklist, and when I press RALT + Home or RCNTL + Home, nothing happens. I double-checked that those keyboard commands are mapped to the engine ignitions in settings, and they are. I've also verified that in Settings > Misc., the HOTAS controls are not mapped to the cockpit controls at startup. Can someone help me figure out what I'm doing wrong?

[randomTOTEN]

Is your hardware throttle at idle?

[Yurgon]

There are a few of common pitfalls.

 

First, like randomTOTEN said, the throttle for the engine to be started needs to be in the idle position. Anywhere above, and the engine start will be ignored.

 

Some cheap or old throttles suffer from bad pots, and they may register spikes and fluctuations. You can probably see these in the Axis assign panel for the throttle. If that's the case, adding a little deadzone can help filter out the spikes near the idle stop.

 

You can check all this right at the beginning of a mission. The key combos certainly won't start the engines when battery, inverter and APU are off, but you should see the throttle move from the OFF position to the IDLE position, and back, using RALT+Home and RCTL+Home for engine start and RALT+End and RCTL+End for engine stop, respectively.

 

A track or a video would also help us spot what's going on, but maybe getting the throttle to idle before engine start was all you needed. Let us know if that helped.

[Frederf]

The throttles won't jump from off to working range if the axis of the throttle is not near 0%. I suggest loading up a quick mission which is already started on the ground and operating the throttle axis. Then from 0% axis try the key commands to set the throttles from idle to off and off to idle.

[gulfcoastfella]

Hey guys, thank you for the ideas. Frederf, I followed your advice and loaded up Instant Action, Take Off, and noticed that when my HOTAS throttle handle was all the way back, the in-game throttles were all the way forward. I never would have suspected that, since the axis assigned to the throttle in Settings showed a maximum value when the HOTAS throttle was all the way forward, and a minimum value when the HOTAS throttle was all the way back. Those DCS control curves are just this side of worthless. I worked for a while to get the curves into that state, only to find out now that the curves don’t mean much just to look at them. I’m tired of fighting with the software tonight, so I’ll try to pick this up again tomorrow or the next day. Thanks again.

[Yurgon]

[...] and noticed that when my HOTAS throttle handle was all the way back, the in-game throttles were all the way forward.

 

That would certainly explain it. ;)

 

All you have to do is invert the axis, then you should be good to go.

[Foka]

noticed that when my HOTAS throttle handle was all the way back, the in-game throttles were all the way forward. I never would have suspected that, since the axis assigned to the throttle in Settings showed a maximum value when the HOTAS throttle was all the way forward, and a minimum value when the HOTAS throttle was all the way back. Those DCS control curves are just this side of worthless. I worked for a while to get the curves into that state, only to find out now that the curves don’t mean much just to look at them

 

If that's the problem reset curves to defult and check the Invert box in axis options.

[gulfcoastfella]

So I learned something about CH's Control Manager software when I was trying to get this all to work correctly. Apparently inverting an axis in CH Control Manager makes it so that the axis is inverted no matter what changes you make in DCS's Settings. That is to say, once I had inverted the axis in CH Control Manager, my throttle axis in DCS would be inverted whether I checked DCS's Invert Axis box or not. Checking the Invert Axis box in DCS Settings did nothing to change whether or not the axis was reversed. I had to go into CH Control Manager and un-invert the axis. Only then would DCS allow me to work with the axis.

 

CH Control Manager is a finicky piece of software. Through all of this, I discovered that if I make changes to the CH profile in CHCM and then close it, then if I want to open CHCM again and make more changes, the only way to keep CHCM from crashing when I reopen it is to restart my computer first. This is pretty annoying when I'm trying different settings to get something to work.

[randomTOTEN]

You shouldn't need to use any sort of control mapping software outside of DCS.

DCS does a mostly excellent job of handling control mapping. You should use external programs as little as you possibly can.

[Caldera]

Hey all,

 

First post, new to DCS.

 

Having an issue related to engine starts.  I have no problem starting in cold and dark. 

 

But.... 

 

f I load up a quick mission on the ramp I have problems.  Using the same exact procedure that I use for cold and dark problems happen.  Let me state that I have developed a start macro system using my x56 that works flawlessly.  After allot of testing and re-testing I know that I am doing it right.  Also let me state, that I wait for the CDU start-up to progress to the point where the engine alarms reset, except for oil and hydraulic pressure.

 

After starting the left engine the ENG START CYCLE light comes on and stays on.  I can never start the right engine.  I have figured out that if I move my left throttle controller forward a bit to idle the ENG START CYCLE light will go out.  Now I can start the right engine.  Same thing happens.  The ENG START CYCLE light stays on until I move my right throttle controller forward a bit to idle.  I have never had to do this for cold and dark.  I simply leave both throttles fully aft and start away.  I  have also noticed that where usually the engines will run up for a short period of time just before the ENG START CYCLE light will go out, where I see the EGT go up for a few seconds then back down.  When the ENG START CYCLE light issue comes up, the EGT stays up.

 

Another thing happens next...

 

So now I have both engines running with both throttle controllers pushed a bit forward at idle.  I stop the APU.  Now the CDU / MFDD's will start a cycle of off - restart - off - restart - off etc...

 

Gave up on it for now.

 

Any advice appreciated,

Caldera

[randomTOTEN]

Welcome,

 

Can you post a short track?

[Caldera]

Hello rT,

 

Thanks for the reply.  

 

As to the track?  I think that I got it attached correctly.  When you see the ENG CYCLE START light going in and out it is me moving my left throttle controller.

 

One thing that I did discover is that the mission that I chose had me starting inside of hardened hanger.  The engine core speed (guessing high speed rotor rpm) is not going above 52%.  While the engine is still trying to run up, the EGT is going to be elevated.  But kind of gets stuck there.  This is what I had noticed before.

 

Maybe it is just not getting enough air to increase rpm?  Too many exhaust fumes?

 

So then I could not figure out how to get my good for not allot (GFNA) ground crew (GFNAGC) to move the plane out of the hanger.  Nor, would they open the back door.

 

So I said "Huh?".  I chose another mission that started me out on the tarmac.  This time the start seem to go normally.  Pretty much the same as the cold and dark start.

 

Caldera

Bomb Shelter start.miz.trk

[Caldera]

Let me update you. 

 

I have since started the same plane in the same (almost) hardened hanger with no issues except getting the navigation system to align.  I found out that I had to pull the plane outside to do that properly.  I have done the alignment during taxi.  The T= number counts up to 5 something.  That normal?

 

Seems that at times I do not know really if I am doing something wrong or the game glitches.  Usually just too confused anyways.

 

Caldera

[Frederf]

SLT in that mission is +50°C. It has nothing to do with the hangar.

 

HAS may block GPS signal but usually that doesn't matter. CDU automatically picks init pos for alignment. In my test I aligned in HAS and  it picked DTC source (not GPS). Maybe if you align but your init pos isn't where the airplane spawned (far enough away) the DTC pos isn't good enough for alignment to converge and since GPS isn't avail maybe entry alignment never ends. But since you're inside a HAS I assume you spawned there so DTC source should be fine. Please share a track of being unable to align inside a shelter. I can't seem to replicate it.

[randomTOTEN]

50C OAT? Where did you get this mission? The scripted autostart can't get the engine going either.

Edited December 15, 2020 by randomTOTEN

[Caldera]

Hey guys,

 

I am still really new at this.  Trying to really just learn dumb weapons right now.  I struggle with finding targets and navigation.  Allot...

 

The mission that I was using (and still am) was a quick mission.  Caucasus summer noon ramp  The game started me in the HAS.

 

Are you trying to tell me that it was too hot?

 

Funny now I wonder, because I had set up an earlier mission using the same conditions.  The engine start-up took really long.  The engines would not wake up.  The take off was just barely.  I mean I barely got off the ground.  I could tell that power was pretty low.  I struggled to climb.  I noticed that the fan speed was maxing at like 72%.  I never figured out why.  Thought I had done something wrong and reloaded another quick mission.  It is almost like the (simulated) EGT fuel limiter is really effected by OAT?  Seems excessive...

 

Because I am so green, the acronyms are a bit difficult.   DTC?  SLT?

 

Caldera

[randomTOTEN]

I'm going to make some educated guesses for Frederf's acronyms, and he can correct me if I'm wrong.

DTC=Data Transfer Cartridge

SLT=Sea Level Temperature

 

I have only default missions for the A-10C 2... this "Caucasus summer noon ramp" is not one of them. It's title doesn't even make sense, you're not on a ramp but in a HAS. The OAT isn't reasonable for the climate and geography. Where did you get this?

At least we know the engines can start by advancing the throttle with extreme OAT.

 

I want to ask, since you're so new, why are you running such a complicated script to start the A-10? You know you can simply modify missions to have it start with a hot aircraft, not just a cold one. You also have an in-game auto-start system (RWIN+HOME). Why did you make this, and why are you using it? It seems needlessly complicated and redundant considering what's currently available.

Edited December 15, 2020 by randomTOTEN

[Caldera]

rT,

 

I guess it is just progresses and is an evolution of sorts.  I began clueless (still am) and it was simply a puzzle to be solved.

 

I started with the TRAINING missions, but I found out that they cover the A-10C not the A-10C ii.  So my DCS HOTAS binds were not working because I had set them up for the A-10C ii.  Annoying...  

 

However, I did learn how to do a start.  So I started doing quite a few INSTANT ACTION "Cold and Dark" missions to practice starts, taxis, take-offs, landings, flight and stops.  I was using the mouse for cockpit controls.  Some of the mouse clicks are in positions of the cockpit can be pretty well obscured or hard for me to see.  So I programed them into my Logitech x56 throttle to make that part easier.

 

So then I thought "huh", the x56 is easily programmable.  The throttle has seven two way switches that can be configured in three possible modes.   Each switch position can contain several keyboard key press binds in succession.  I simply programed the DCS keyboard binds into the switches and configured them in logical groups.  I set it up so that it happens just as if I was pressing keys on the keyboard.  Now, I just have to move these switches in correct sequence and at the right time during the start.  This sends all the keyboard key presses in the correct order and I can't really forget anything or do it wrong.  It also makes me feel like I am starting "something" by physically moving "something".  The programing part was quite easy actually and in that process I have become pretty familiar with the start process, manual or automated.

 

Next, I learned how to use the cannon and to use dumb bombs / rockets.  While annihilating my comrads in arms on the ground or at sea was fun, fratricide seemed a little wrong and is frowned upon by the game.  So I looked into QUICK FAST MISSION.  The first tries were absolutely overwhelming.  

 

On the first little small window that opens after selecting QUICK FAST MISSION I noticed that there are several drop down boxes with various options.  So when I say (type) "Caucasus summer ramp noon"  and "clear" that is just a summary of the options I selected on that first page.  In addition, after generating the mission, I select ADVANCED OPTIONS.  There are are a bunch of drop down windows on this page for both teams.  This allows me to tone things down a whole lot, where I can practice.  I can also change my load outs.

 

From there,  after selecting FLY MISSION being placed in a HAS is just a random result of selecting those options as it sometimes places me on the tarmac or in a parking spot.  I have been saving the mission to reduce time that it takes to re-start a mission after quitting the game.  One of these saved missions is where my troubles, explained above, started. 

 

Programing the x56 trigger also allows me to simulate a two stage trigger pull.  Thus, I can turn on PAC1 and then the cannon will fire 400 milliseconds later all in the process of a single actual trigger pull.  I find that convenient.

 

Thanks for your help.  I have never once paid any attention to OAT or really any other weather variable.  But I will start to do so.  Kind of seems like an airplane thing.

 

Caldera

[Caldera]

Frederf,

 

Let me see what I can do.

 

Caldera

[randomTOTEN]

Thanks for the explanation. Yeah I have a much better understanding now. If it helps there is a way to move profiles across modules. In your A-10C_2 profile, click "Save Profile As" and name the file and put it somewhere easy to find. Then navigate to the A-10C(I would probably clear the present profile first) and click "Load Profile" and it will populate. You will loose all modifiers and switch states so those will have to be rebound, and I would check to make sure that everything is still bound correctly. But that should get you well on the way of running the tutorial missions if you haven't already solved all this already.

 

Enjoy, hope the issues get sorted.

[Frederf]

The quick missions are randomly generated and it's possible to be bonkers weather conditions. In terms of learning the nuts and bolts of the airplane features I can't recommend highly enough the mission editor. It can allow simple missions to be made very easily and since you just want learning it's a consistent and bare bones environment. You can also save yourself a lot of time starting mid air, only the weapons you want to practice, half fuel for performance, etc.

 

The A-10 EGI alignment has always been easy peasy and it's always been 4 min in any condition except in flight. I don't even think it's modeled any difference being inside a building. Even when I put in manual L/L for initial I can't get align to fail. One cute thing if you're trying to shave time is that you can skip ~90s or so of the alignment by going to ALT ALIGN in the CDU and picking the FAST option to shave off the early seconds of the process if available (e.g. first start).

[Caldera]

Thanks again guys,

 

I'll take a look at that save profile procedure you describe, that could be useful.

 

I did take a look at the mission builder, my brain just kind of went "WHAAAAAAAAT????".  I will give it a try again.

 

I tried to re-create the alignment issue.  I could not get it to happen again either.  On one quick mission save that I had, it happened 100% of the time.  Dunno...

 

I saw that alternative alignment in a Ralfidude video.  Thought I would give it a try in the future.

 

Caldera

[Caldera]

UNCLE!

 

One small hint as to where or how I check the weather conditions be too much to ask?

 

Caldera

[randomTOTEN]

Scroll down on the briefing page (the one that is displayed before you start the mission).