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[OPTION IN NEXT UPDATE] Helmet mounted sight in VR - shouldn't it be a monocle?

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    #21
    Originally posted by some1 View Post
    VR kits lack Depth of Field (everything is focused on the same plane at about 1.5-2 meters away), so having HMD in one eye is not a super realistic experience either. It's harder on your brain than it really should be.
    In VR the "infinity" is at the 2 meters as you say, but it is not fixed in your eye. You can focus closer than that.

    So if we have an distant object, it is positioned on the screens so that eyes will cross at 2 meters distance. But if we have something closer, we can calculate it's 3D position by separating it differently between screens and it appears closer and our eyes needs to look cross at shorter distance. But it will not focus at close distance as the focus distance has not changed from that 2 meters.

    So we can get the look that something is at close, but we can't change focus as we have limited DOF in our eye, why things gets blurrier at close distance.

    The JHMCS/Scorpio (HMS) is anyways a device that has optics to draw superimposed image to infinity, not on distance where it projected screen is.
    Otherwise pilot would be focusing at close range few centimeters from their eye and never see a(age sight) anything and lose a target or information depending what to look.

    So we can make it realistically by having it at "infinity" (2 meters) but to feel it as it would be on our face.
    The trick is not to focus on extra display but look naturally, and they get superimposed.
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      #22
      Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
      So if we have an distant object, it is positioned on the screens so that eyes will cross at 2 meters distance. But if we have something closer, we can calculate it's 3D position by separating it differently between screens and it appears closer and our eyes needs to look cross at shorter distance. But it will not focus at close distance as the focus distance has not changed from that 2 meters.
      What you describe is a depth perception thanks to stereoscopic vision and that doesn't work if an object is displayed only in one eye. In real life, even with one eye closed, you can still roughly estimate distance thanks to the changes in eye focus between objects. You can't do that in VR as with one eye closed, the other eye just sees a flat screen with all objects at the same focus distance (1-2 meters, manufacturers don't give the exact number).

      So with the HMD screen displayed in one eye in VR, your mind has no option than to think the display is close to your head, where your eyes are focused (1-2 meters). It would not react like that in real life, with HMD screen focused on far away plane, basically infinity.

      Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
      The JHMCS/Scorpio (HMS) is anyways a device that has optics to draw superimposed image to infinity, not on distance where it projected screen is.
      Yep, and 1-2 meters offered by VR headsets is not "infinity". It's just a compromise so that our minds can be tricked into depth perception by only using stereoscopic vision. It works fine in most cases, as stereoscopic vision is our main source of depth perception in real life. But it hits the system limitation with things like HUDs, HMDs and the likes.

      That's why having the HMD screen in one eye only is not quite as realistic experience as you may think, and harder on your eyes than it would be in real life.

      Hardware: Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Hotas Cougar, Slaw Rudder, Wheel Stand Pro, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Reverb

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        #23
        Originally posted by some1 View Post
        VR kits lack Depth of Field (everything is focused on the same plane at about 1.5-2 meters away), so having HMD in one eye is not a super realistic experience either. It's harder on your brain than it really should be.
        Depth of Field is a function of camera's aperture sizes, and doesn't exist in VR headsets except for artificial generation (that is itself unrealistic). It isn't harder on your brain in VR because your brain is focusing on 3d objects rendered in a 3d space just as it would in real life.
        YouTube Channel: "Clutch"

        Z390 Aorus Elite | i5-9600k @4.7Ghz | RTX2070 | 32GB DDR4 | Windows 10 | Odyssey Plus | Warthog HOTAS | 20cm Extension

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          #24
          Originally posted by Nealius View Post
          It isn't harder on your brain in VR because your brain is focusing on 3d objects rendered in a 3d space just as it would in real life.
          There is no "3D" in VR if an object is shown only in one eye. In such situation you can't rely on eye accommodation to judge distance, like you would in real life. Your brain can only "guess" where an object like HMD overlay is located in space.

          That's why at least some people get the weird sensation with HMD shown in one eye, that it is not in the correct place, or it's slapped too close to your face. Of course you can "train" yourself to use it, but it's not that hard in reality as it is in the VR.

          Hardware: Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Hotas Cougar, Slaw Rudder, Wheel Stand Pro, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Reverb

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            #25
            If that were true, then closing one eye and trying to use the HUD would cause the same problem. It doesn't.

            The problem is that people aren't used to having two different images at the same time. It's literally no different than training yourself to shoot a rifle with both eyes open.
            YouTube Channel: "Clutch"

            Z390 Aorus Elite | i5-9600k @4.7Ghz | RTX2070 | 32GB DDR4 | Windows 10 | Odyssey Plus | Warthog HOTAS | 20cm Extension

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              #26
              The HUD is not fixed to your head. You've got a reference frame because of how it reacts to your head movement. Our minds are really good at constructing 3d scene from limited information, even without stereoscopic or depth information. It's enough just to see that the HUD images stay in one place while you move your head forward/sideways, and your mind already knows it's far away. Even if the focal plane doesn't match what you see.

              HMD is very different because it's fixed to your head and you don't have any reference as to where it should be located. So in VR it "feels" like it's close to your head, while in real life it would "feel" like it's far away, because you could see it clearly only with your eye focused on far away objects.
              A bit like a camera on this HUD photo: https://i.redd.it/jz4066uc24r51.jpg

              Anyway, this is drifting more and more off-topic. More options regarding HMD display are fine, and it's great that we'll have that. I'm just pointing out that it's not really more realistic to have HMD in one eye as you're still subject to the same VR limitations, that make it harder to use than it is in real life.

              Hardware: Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Hotas Cougar, Slaw Rudder, Wheel Stand Pro, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Reverb

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                #27
                You're still missing some1's point. Depth of field is a result of focal length, something our eyes have to adjust for (the same as a camera) and is one of the ways we perceive depth. Focal length is fixed in VR, so we've lost this information. VR only provides depth perception through stereoscopic vision - it's totally independent of focal length.

                Whether this makes much difference to the topic at hand is perhaps more up for debate, but the idea that it could seems perfectly possible.

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                  #28
                  Originally posted by some1 View Post
                  What you describe is a depth perception thanks to stereoscopic vision and that doesn't work if an object is displayed only in one eye. In real life, even with one eye closed, you can still roughly estimate distance thanks to the changes in eye focus between objects. You can't do that in VR as with one eye closed, the other eye just sees a flat screen with all objects at the same focus distance (1-2 meters, manufacturers don't give the exact number).
                  Exactly.

                  That has been the major problem in the military simulators for decades (they have been pioneers in this VR area) why it has not been taken in use for long time because it causes problems for pilots to withstand the VR. Just that the eye doesn't focus and cross properly like in reality (you are looking at infinity at most, closest is your cockpit. In VR it is 2 meters to closer by crossing).

                  So with the HMD screen displayed in one eye in VR, your mind has no option than to think the display is close to your head, where your eyes are focused (1-2 meters). It would not react like that in real life, with HMD screen focused on far away plane, basically infinity.
                  Oculus has the fixed 2 meters focus distance, until they get the electronic lens focusing so that focus can actually be shifted.


                  Yep, and 1-2 meters offered by VR headsets is not "infinity". It's just a compromise so that our minds can be tricked into depth perception by only using stereoscopic vision. It works fine in most cases, as stereoscopic vision is our main source of depth perception in real life. But it hits the system limitation with things like HUDs, HMDs and the likes.
                  It is not bad for majority. The 2 meters is enough to create the infinity feeling, but some are just problematic alone to have something rendering only on non-dominant eye (most are left eye dominant) and they try to read something like changing numbers and so, it will just cause trouble.

                  That's why having the HMD screen in one eye only is not quite as realistic experience as you may think, and harder on your eyes than it would be in real life.
                  Actually it is more realistic.

                  I am one of those rare who can look different things with both eyes (read different books same time), I don't have a dominant eye. Sometimes I forget which one is my dominant when I am tired and I get carried with rapid switching of images. I as well use weekly, if not every day a one eye for one display information and other eye just for peripheral vision. I am very well trained for handling two different sides. Like I can write with both hands with pen, without any trouble the same text (imitating) and with focusing I can write two different texts same time.

                  And the one eye HMD in DCS is far more realistic than having it on both. It breaks everything having it on both eyes and it really feels it is on the eye than infinity.
                  i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
                  i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

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