Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Required stick input at rotation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Required stick input at rotation

    Am I the only one that thinks that the amount of pitch input needed to rotate the aircraft seems excessive? It takes a LOT of rearward stick to rotate .... which you have to release significantly once in the climb. Maybe that's accurate.

    ... oh before you mention it, T/O trim is always selected

    #2
    Takeoff/rotation speed is just above stall speed, so no wonder you have to pull the stick excessively. My 2 cents only...

    Comment


      #3
      Yes, I wondered that myself. Tbh, I don't have any real life experience but it was one of the first things I noticed when transitioning to this type.
      The hornet on the other hand lifts off on it's own.
      Greetings, Nils
      --
      i7 4790k, RTX 2060, 16 GB RAM

      Comment


        #4
        It is if you expect rotation the instant you pull back. I just pull back some and let the plane decide when it wants to rotate. If you want instant rotation you'll pull back too far and then you have too much pitch to climb out. Be gentle with the old girl. It's not a Viper.
        Buzz

        Comment


          #5
          Absolutely true. This is why there is a Vr (rotation speed) and then the V2 (lift-off speed) some 5-10 knots later. At Vr you are still pretty much at or below stall speed...

          Comment


            #6
            Also to add, be careful pulling too much, as you can end up striking the tail against the runway.
            Aircraft: A-10A, A-10C, A-10C II, P-51D, F-16C, F/A-18C, F-15C

            Modules: Super Carrier, NTTR, Persian Gulf, WWII Assets

            PC: MSI 990FXA Gaming, FX-8120 3.1 GHz, 32GB Patriot Viper RAM, GTX980 4GB, 27" 1080p curved Samsung monitor, Saitek X-45 HOTAS, Opentrack

            sigpic

            Comment


              #7
              As someone who flies the A-10 more than any other DCS module, I'm not sure I agree, but my frame of reference is limited.

              That said, what's your rotation speed? A track or a video could help us spot differences between your technique and that of others.

              Comment


                #8
                Rotation speed also depends on your a/c weight. Heavier weight = higher rotation speed. If you rotate too early (at too slow a speed). It will take more elevator to rotate the aircraft and you will spend longer at a nose high attitude waiting for the aircraft to fly.
                Lobo's DCS A-10C Normal Checklist & Quick Reference Handbook current version 8D available here:
                http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/172905/

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Razor18 View Post
                  Absolutely true. This is why there is a Vr (rotation speed) and then the V2 (lift-off speed) some 5-10 knots later. At Vr you are still pretty much at or below stall speed...

                  Razor18, I'm afraid your V speed definitions are wrong. Please look up the correct definitions in the FAR's.
                  GA-Z170XP-SLI, I7-7700k, 16GB DDR4 3200, 2070 Super, Vizio 40" 4K, TrackIR, T50-CM2
                  307AMU, 308AMU, 14th MAS, 9th AREFS

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I don't know what the civil term is for it but V1 is decision, Vr is rotate, something is liftoff, V2 is single engine safe speed. I don't have the -1-1 to calculate but usually you go through the charts to find liftoff speed and then rotation will be a few knots before that (e.g. 10) which is calculated that at a normal rotation rate you'll end up at liftoff speed when you hit liftoff attitude and you'll do those X knots of acceleration during that time. Example liftoff calculated 150 knots, rotate at 3dps at 140 knots to 12 degrees. Those four seconds will have the airplane accelerating from 140 to 150 knots.

                    A-10 definitely requires deliberate back pull, not as much as MiG-21 but doesn't take itself off like F-5 or F-18. But you should be careful thinking that it takes excess back pressure if you aren't doing the rotation and liftoff at the proper book speeds (and we don't have those I think).

                    Actually I do have the A-10A-1-1 and it says for 7deg flaps at 40,000lbs takeoff (liftoff) speed is 136 KIAS and rotation should be "approximately 10 knots less". The C figures should be similar. The flaps are different in the C though (10 for mvr). And maybe the engines are different and balance and blah blah but you get the idea. For completeness the same takeoff with 0 deg flaps is 141 KIAS. You could set up a DCS A-10 at 40,000 lbs and zero flaps and try a takeoff at 131 KIAS rotate 141 KIAS liftoff and see if the feeling is the same.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      i use formula as federf states. with a-10 i just pull on stick to get nose up, hold it steady until it lifts off, get the gear up as quick as possible, then flaps at a few hundred feet altitude.
                      AKA_SilverDevil

                      ==========================================

                      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.

                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Frederf View Post
                        I don't know what the civil term is for it but V1 is decision, Vr is rotate, something is liftoff, V2 is single engine safe speed.
                        VLOF is liftoff, but I've never once seen it used anywhere.

                        run come save me

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Scofflaw View Post

                          VLOF is liftoff, but I've never once seen it used anywhere.
                          Indeed, Vlof one of those speeds engineers worry about. Generally speaking as pilots of multi engine aircraft we only concern ourselves with V1, Vr and V2 (Vref and Vrot in military aircraft I believe). I’ve not found any takeoff (or landing) performance data for any of the modules in the documentation so we just give it out best guess and hope for the best.

                          In answer to the original poster whilst it does need a lot of aft stick initially it doesn’t seem excessive to me. It’s also not unusual to have to modulate this throughout the rotation and into the initial climb. You don’t just set one amount of stick and forget it.

                          Best Regards,

                          Chaders.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Usually takeoff performance charts are designed that if you rotate at a certain rate at a certain speed you will arrive at the liftoff attitude at the liftoff speed. Prolonged rolling in the liftoff attitude is a sign that the procedure is designed wrong for the airplane.

                            Liftoff is caused by lift which is a function of two variables, attitude and speed. A good liftoff is positive, meaning that the airplane spends very little time near the regime where lift = weight. All sorts of nasty things can happen when lift = weight. The best way to have a good liftoff is to build up lift < weight quickly and this is done by attacking attitude and speed simultaneously. You don't want to fly at the liftoff attitude and accelerate through liftoff speed and you don't want to achieve liftoff speed and then adopt the liftoff attitude. The first one only slowly builds lift and the second one means having to throttle back. If pitch angle and speed are both increasing together you get a good takeoff.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Meyomyx View Post
                              It takes a LOT of rearward stick to rotate .... which you have to release significantly once in the climb.
                              This happens in all aircraft when you try to force rotation early.

                              YouTube Channel: "Clutch"

                              Z390 Aorus Elite | i5-9600k @4.7Ghz | RTX2070 | 32GB DDR4 | Windows 10 | Odyssey Plus | Warthog HOTAS | 20cm Extension

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Frederf View Post
                                All sorts of nasty things can happen when lift = weight.
                                Indeed, level flight is nasty for military pilots.
                                Do not expect fairness.
                                The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Razor,

                                  "Absolutely true. This is why there is a Vr (rotation speed) and then the V2 (lift-off speed) some 5-10 knots later. At Vr you are still pretty much at or below stall speed..."


                                  V
                                  — From the French word vitesse, meaning “speed.”
                                  V1
                                  — Maximum speed in the takeoff at which the pilot must take the first action (e.g., apply brakes, reduce thrust, deploy speedbrakes) to stop the airplane within the accelerate-stop distance. V1 also means the minimum speed in the takeoff, following a failure of the critical engine at VEF, at which the pilot can continue the takeoff and achieve the required height above the surface within the takeoff distance.
                                  V2
                                  — Takeoff safety speed for jets, turboprops or transport-category aircraft. Best climb gradient speed (i.e., best altitude increase per mile with the most critical engine inop). Twin-engine aircraft with an engine inop are guaranteed a 2.4 percent climb gradient (24 feet up per 1,000 feet forward). Minimum speed to be maintained to at least 400 feet agl.


                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    It's definitely sticky on the ground. With full aft trim, the nose seems like it gets a little light, but it still takes a pretty good pull to rotate. Once the nose is off the ground though, she'll want to nearly loop if you don't push and trim after liftoff.

                                    The A-10 does sit slightly nose low on her gear though. Slight natural negative AOA.
                                    sigpic
                                    http://www.476vfightergroup.com/content.php
                                    High Quality Aviation Photography For Personal Enjoyment And Editorial Use.
                                    www.crosswindimages.com

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Haven't noticed the problem. I'm using an X56 Hotas. Set pitch at Vr and it will just fly off a few knots later. Maybe I'm just lucky but then I haven't flown anything else in DCS to compare with.

                                      Comment

                                      Working...
                                      X