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    #21
    Originally posted by naizarak View Post
    as shown in wags' video, the apkws has a unique profile in the DSMS separate from regular hydras. all the necessary info is present for the optimal launch zone to be calculated, yet it isn't for some reason
    DSMS profile yes but APKWS does not have an impact on the rocket reticle, it's the same as using regular, non laser, rockets in the real jet.
    Last edited by Snoopy; 09-29-2020, 01:22 AM.
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      #22
      Originally posted by naizarak View Post
      as shown in wags' video, the apkws has a unique profile in the DSMS separate from regular hydras. all the necessary info is present for the optimal launch zone to be calculated, yet it isn't for some reason

      Because, as I said above, the jet doesn't know if any given rocket will be guided after launch or not. Therefore it uses the exact same symbology and ballistic calculations as for other rockets.


      Remember, you can still use a rocket with an APKWS kit as a dumb rocket. Additionally, you don't need an optimal launch zone, you already know from either the CCIP or CCRP symbology if the rocket cam reach the target area, what more do you need?
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        #23
        Originally posted by Snoopy View Post
        DSMS profile yes but APKWS does not have an impact on the rocket reticle, it's the same as using regular, non laser, rockets in the real jet.
        So how does the pilot know when can he release the weapon? I guess, flying at 20K will let you shoot further than 5NM?

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          #24
          Originally posted by nickos86 View Post
          So how does the pilot know when can he release the weapon? I guess, flying at 20K will let you shoot further than 5NM?

          CCIP/CCRP...
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            #25
            Originally posted by Eddie View Post
            CCIP/CCRP...
            I guess the question being asked is whether the CCIP reticle is always correct beyond its 12000ft range limit? All the way to the rockets ballastic range?

            How much energy/speed does the rocket need to still manoeuvre/guide at its max range?

            How much off bore sight can the rocket seeker deal with and how does this effect max range?

            Does a higher altitude release give the rocket better terminal performance, especially at max range or moving target.

            What’s the rule of thumb for best case optimum altitude versus range etc?

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              #26
              Originally posted by nickos86 View Post
              So how does the pilot know when can he release the weapon? I guess, flying at 20K will let you shoot further than 5NM?
              By using all the existing skill and methods as with unguided rockets.
              The only difference is pilot knows that there is no requirements to try be accurate with aiming, no need to concern wind, and just remember to have laser designation on target with proper code before release.

              The APKWS rocket has a better flight dynamics than non-guided, because the module adds wings and controllability. The ballistic drop for unguided launch (just don't paint target with laser) is said to be same as without module, but rocket flies without control inputs, and is more subjective to side winds etc.
              But if you need to launch rockets unguided in quick situation, then likely you are so close that it doesn't matter the small impact error as you are firing a area of effect weapon, not a precision guided weapon (same like you would when firing unguided rockets).

              But when you have laser designations, then the guidance module corrects flight trajectory for pure pursuit mode. So the rocket is always pointing directly at the target. It's control surfaces generate lift and it's kinematic energy can fly it far distances as the rocket has no drooping toward ground because corrections.

              Click image for larger version

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              As manufacturer gives tested estimations, for unguided rockets 1-6 km effective range. While for guided version you can have even over 12 km ranges when you time laser designation and lofting curve properly with speed and altitude and all (firing laser at target in final moments so rocket flies at high curve instead try to fly directly at it to maximize energy).

              You can as well see that minimum effective range is longer, instead 1 km it is 1.5-2 km as the guidance section can't turn so tightly at maximum 20 degree correction at so short distance as it flies so fast. It as well takes 0.5 seconds to deploy wings where it's seekers exist, spot the laser dot, stabilize itself and start maneuvering.

              The whole idea is not to turn a unguided rocket to a long range cruise missile, but keep the same engagement parameters as unguided ones, with just capability engage targets at further distance as reserve.

              So idea is not to try get a 8-12 km launch ranges, just fire at the common unguided rocket parameters but with precision.

              As already given example, but think a scenario where a friendly troops are pinned down by a enemy that is located in a building inside a city for CQC scenario. You can't fire unguided rockets as you might hit friendlies, civilians and miss enemy. You can't drop a 250 kg laser guided bombs for same reasons. And you can't use Maverick or Hellfire, and even a cannon is dangerous.

              So answer becomes to be a APKWS with a penetrator warhead. You fire it at the building wall and goes in and explodes inside a room.
              Minimal change for collateral damage while full effect in the enemy position.

              The "Eye in the sky" movie demoes well such a scenario where you benefit from a smaller warhead for the purpose to do a precision strike.

              The APKWS II is easier to understand if one thinks a unguided rockets and imagines that if they would fly at laser designated target. Nothing else changes than you need laser on target and it works....

              There is nothing fancy required to be changed than insert guidance module between warhead and rocket motor by the ground crew.

              Even our exact Navy F/A-18C Lot 20 was a second fixed wing aircraft qualified for it's operational use in 2018. No modifications, no changes.
              The US military has gone crazy to start Navy supplying it to all in-service vehicles as it is proven system.
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                #27
                Originally posted by AvroLanc View Post
                I guess the question being asked is whether the CCIP reticle is always correct beyond its 12000ft range limit? All the way to the rockets ballastic range?
                Why would somebody try to hit something accurately at max range with area of effect weapon, by not using its guidance system?

                Trying to fire a APKWS without guidance on target at 15000-20000 ft is just stupidity.

                The 12000ft is 3.7 km so you are well inside the maximum effective range for APKWS in guidance mode.

                How much energy/speed does the rocket need to still manoeuvre/guide at its max range?
                That is about flight modeling question, and manufacturer says the limitation is the rocket motor, not seeker or guidance section. With a more powerful rocket engine they could fly further.

                But it clearly exceeds the unguided ones that are limited by effective firing range.

                How much off bore sight can the rocket seeker deal with and how does this effect max range?
                +/- 20 degrees. And it doesn't. Seeker has even captured laser spot from over 14 km range. BAE has released very detailed technical specifications for the module.

                Does a higher altitude release give the rocket better terminal performance, especially at max range or moving target.
                You get more range. Just like anything else. Your altitude, speed and timing when you fire laser affects to that. Like lofting a GBU-12, you can't fire laser too soon or bomb will start turning at the spot and most effective ballistic high trajectory is denied as bomb tries to keep straight line.

                What’s the rule of thumb for best case optimum altitude versus range etc?
                Why would somebody try to use APKWS as a cruise missile?
                Rule of thumb could be that you use guided rockets from same envelope as unguided rockets, you just have a precision strike capability and far longer effective range.

                But you are not to go and try to fire from max ranges.
                That is one of the problems in DCS that DLZ is calculated perfectly and each released weapon is mathematically perfect.
                Players try to launch weapons at maximum range and then get upset when they didn't hit if launch parameters suddenly changed.

                But ED has already rocket energy dynamics in, it should have proper expected trajectories for unguided version and all. Now they just needed to add extra lift, extra weight, extra drag and control surfaces to flight modeling to get things properly in.

                Basically ED can do a CFD on the rocket (likely has) like they have done for many missiles already, as APKWS is not different from those.
                Last edited by Fri13; 09-29-2020, 11:22 PM.
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