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Impossible to shoot off wings with mk 108

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    Impossible to shoot off wings with mk 108

    I'm not sure if it's bug or intended in the new DM but I can't take off wing of any fighter plane in game (against AI). Spitfire, Dora, P-51, they just start to burn in the fuselage area even if you only hit the wings with the canon. It's only possible to shoot off the tail of planes in the new DM. I was hoping the mk 108 would be modeled correctly in DCS unlike in the other WWII sim, but it's still weak.

    From wikipedia: "Testing verified that the autocannon was well suited to this role, requiring on average just four hits with its 85g RDX-load (in a 330g shell) and a resulting strongly brisant high-explosive ammunition, to bring down a heavy bomber such as a B-17 Flying Fortress or B-24 Liberator, and just a single "shattering" hit to down a fighter. In comparison, the otherwise excellent 20 mm MG 151/20 (3g of HE in 57g shell) required an average of 25 hits to down a B-17."

    #2
    I've watched most of guncams and seen only fw-190 that lost a left wing, can't find the video right now, seems that planes are not that fragile.

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      #3
      Yeah I would agree when it comes to machine guns and 20 mm ammo. But there's pretty famous video of Mk 108 tests done on spitfire and it takes literally 1 shot to blow off the tail and 1 to tako off the wing.

      ​​​​​​Also going deliberately for the wings is not the best idea, generally pilots went for the center of mass (in case of fighters), so most of engagements ended in fire/smoke/pilot kill.

      And K-4 was active for short period right before the end of the war, so I wouldn't expect many gun cam vids from that particular plane.

      While I agree it would be unfair, especially in mulriplayer, DCS is simulator and it should represent reality as much as possible. I hope this is just bug and not their decision to balance multiplayer like other games did before.

      Comment


        #4
        I havent had this issue in multiplayer, AI are well known in dcs for running different models to player aircraft, i would suggest getting a friend to hop in an aircraft to test it out.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Peter5on View Post
          I've watched most of guncams and seen only fw-190 that lost a left wing, can't find the video right now, seems that planes are not that fragile.
          Here a vid with few 190 loosing a wing. But that's not the wing that is weak. This is more probably ammo that explode (from external MG 151/20) that break it. If you look closely, it explode always in the same area. And the only thing that can explode there are ammo.
          (I don't think this is modelised yet)



          To come back on title, I agree too that Mk 108 is a bit weak. Need at list 2 hit in an area to destroy something (except few lucky shot that make it 1 shoot)
          Last edited 11-20-2020, 02:31 PM.

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            #6
            Originally posted by zcrazyx View Post
            I havent had this issue in multiplayer, AI are well known in dcs for running different models to player aircraft, i would suggest getting a friend to hop in an aircraft to test it out.
            I'm strictly single player and at the moment I can barely download OB update with my 5 Mbit connection ​​​​​.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by ouky1991 View Post
              I'm not sure if it's bug or intended in the new DM but I can't take off wing of any fighter plane in game (against AI). Spitfire, Dora, P-51, they just start to burn in the fuselage area even if you only hit the wings with the canon. It's only possible to shoot off the tail of planes in the new DM. I was hoping the mk 108 would be modeled correctly in DCS unlike in the other WWII sim, but it's still weak.

              From wikipedia: "Testing verified that the autocannon was well suited to this role, requiring on average just four hits with its 85g RDX-load (in a 330g shell) and a resulting strongly brisant high-explosive ammunition, to bring down a heavy bomber such as a B-17 Flying Fortress or B-24 Liberator, and just a single "shattering" hit to down a fighter. In comparison, the otherwise excellent 20 mm MG 151/20 (3g of HE in 57g shell) required an average of 25 hits to down a B-17."
              The simple formula for the engineers gives much more HE to damage thin (up to 20 mm) steel construction: W = 20*F, where F is an area of the cut (cut length * thickness) in cm2, W - charge weight in grams.
              Then look at the spitfire main spar design...
              https://flyaspitfire.com/spitfire-wi...trong-and-fast

              It's spar is a cantilever that is able to sustain circa 3000-4000 kg multiplied to ultimate load factor (10-12).

              Minengeschoss, as the test revealed, was not effective as brisant against hard structures but much more due to its blast effect against skin.


              Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів
              There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.
              Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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                #8
                Originally posted by Yo-Yo View Post

                The simple formula for the engineers gives much more HE to damage thin (up to 20 mm) steel construction: W = 20*F, where F is an area of the cut (cut length * thickness) in cm2, W - charge weight in grams.
                Then look at the spitfire main spar design...
                https://flyaspitfire.com/spitfire-wi...trong-and-fast

                It's spar is a cantilever that is able to sustain circa 3000-4000 kg multiplied to ultimate load factor (10-12).

                Minengeschoss, as the test revealed, was not effective as brisant against hard structures but much more due to its blast effect against skin.

                That's interesting info, athough I'm not smart enough to understand what exatcly is it saying, I just like to blow s**t up. So does it mean it's not gonna be possible to shoot the wings off anymore, even with mk 108?

                Here's the test https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW
                I guess it could survive 1 git in the wing, but 2 or 3? Is Mk.IX that much stronger than Mk.II?
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                https://i.imgur.com/7hiQvJq.mp4

                Please reconsider the current MD of Mk 108. If multiplayer balance is problem (understandably), perhaps there could be restrictions on HE ammo - only for SP.

                Comment


                  #9
                  DCS doesn't balance.

                  As Yo-Yo was saying the main spar takes the load for the wing to fail this would have to be damaged.

                  ​​​In the image you have shown the Spar does not appear to be hit, however the aircraft wouldn't fly particularly well

                  ​​​
                  ​​
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                    #10
                    Also that image appears a lot worse than you it really is... The flap is blown down, all of the panels behind the wheel door are missing, however if you look at the images below while extensive the angle of the photo makes the damage look significantly worse.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 16GB Ram | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | Oculus Rift CV1 | MFG crosswind Pedals

                    Project IX Cockpit

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Krupi View Post
                      Also that image appears a lot worse than you it really is... The flap is blown down, all of the panels behind the wheel door are missing, however if you look at the images below while extensive the angle of the photo makes the damage look significantly worse.
                      OK, I'm gonna rephrase it for you. Currently, under any circumstances, it's not possible to rip off wing with the mk 108 whether you hit the same spot once or 10 times with the high explosive ammo against AI planes. PvP doesn't have this problem.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        This shoot is placed perfectly, shot exploded just in the middle of the wing.
                        Very difficult to duplicate this.
                        Click image for larger version

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                        sigpic

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by grafspee View Post
                          This shoot is placed perfectly, shot exploded just in the middle of the wing.
                          Very difficult to duplicate this.
                          Click image for larger version  Name:	fetch?id=7146782&d=1605897944.gif Views:	0 Size:	988.2 KB ID:	7148573
                          If you place AI plane on the same side as you (german for example) he will fly straight, then it's actually very easy to duplicate. But this is not as much of problem with the weakness of 108. The bigger issue is that it's not possible at all, no matter how many times you hit the wing, to separate it mid flight. That's not an issue in DM for player vs player, it's only happening with AI damage model.

                          Edit: After more tests, it seems only AI possible to de-wing without burning first is P-51D - 5 plus hits. I hope this will get fixed.

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