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I don't think the take-off difficulty is realistic.

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    #41
    Originally posted by amazingme View Post
    Too bad he doesn't mention the exact speed.. as it's MUCH lower than in DCS
    Source? Conditions? Your reaching. Again.

    Originally posted by amazingme View Post
    and you intentionally missed the part with "the amount of effort needed to produce the relevant nose movement seems exactly right"
    No intentional about it. We are discussing takeoff characteristics. In any case you are using an unquantified subjective opinion to support an argument based on your own subjective interpretation. There is no data to compare, ergo it is irrelevant.

    Originally posted by amazingme View Post
    and if you read it further you'll see that "When you maneuver ABOVE 500km/h, two hands are required for a MORE aggressive performance.." whereas in DCS the stick forces are implemented as low as 300km/h!!!.
    Let's leave that for an appropriate topic, hmmm?

    Originally posted by amazingme View Post
    Or.. "Above 550km/h, one peculiarity is a SLIGHT NOSE-DOWN trim change as you accelerate. This means that when you run in for an airshow above 500km/h, the airplane has a SLIGHT tucking sensation - a sort of desire to get DOWN to ground level." And a lot more like these..
    Tell me where and when do you notice any of these in DCS.. since you brought it up.
    Again, this is not the topic for it, and in any case it could be there is a difference between a G-10 and a K-4 that accounts for this. The MW-50 tank springs to mind for one. I highly doubt that modern restorations fly with this filled. You will have to ask Yo-Yo.

    I used the G-10 a stand-in in the case of the directional characteristics on takeoff as the vertical tail format is virtually unchanged and horsepower, wing planform and undercarriage geometry are very similar for the two aircraft, and a far closer match than the earlier G variants referenced in your videos.
    Last edited 09-14-2020, 05:45 PM.

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      #42
      To "Sandcat"
      Check your private messages please
      Last edited 09-14-2020, 10:34 PM.

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        #43
        Originally posted by amazingme View Post
        The funny thing is that the OP compared the take off in DCS with the real thing and you guys jumped in to give advice on how to do it in DCS..

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        Nothing funny about that. I don't know how accurate / inaccurate FM is, nor do I care all that much because:
        a) we can't mod it anyway;
        b) without numerical sources the FM won't be revised by the devs;
        c) every sim devs claim their interpretation of 109 is the best one, while they all fly quite different. Go figure. The only thing to do then is learn how the 109 handles in every sim and adjust your technigue accordingly. Hence our tips and advices.
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          #44
          Originally posted by DD_Fenrir View Post
          Source? Conditions? Your reaching. Again.



          No intentional about it. We are discussing takeoff characteristics. In any case you are using an unquantified subjective opinion to support an argument based on your own subjective interpretation. There is no data to compare, ergo it is irrelevant.



          Let's leave that for an appropriate topic, hmmm?



          Again, this is not the topic for it, and in any case it could be there is a difference between a G-10 and a K-4 that accounts for this. The MW-50 tank springs to mind for one. I highly doubt that modern restorations fly with this filled. You will have to ask Yo-Yo.

          I used the G-10 a stand-in in the case of the directional characteristics on takeoff as the vertical tail format is virtually unchanged and horsepower, wing planform and undercarriage geometry are very similar for the two aircraft, and a far closer match than the earlier G variants referenced in your videos.
          Extract from an interview with Franz Stigler who flew the real deal back then: "Fanz Stigler liked the 109G as well and also enjoyed flying the K-4. The K-4, he said was very much like the G yet could leave all other fighters behind in climb. In control feel he said the K felt identical to the G. He described on many occasions where they would just bank away from the fighters and climb away from them"
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            #45
            This thread echoes the discussions disputing the Spitfire's realism on take off on the grounds of its difficulty. So, before this escalates into something nasty, as heralded by the first reply to this thread, should smooth-takeoff-disbelievers consider that if some of us can do it, then it is possible?

            What I can add to this is that the statement about opening the throttle gently is a little inaccurate. You have to open it dead slowly so engine torque does not throw you hard to the left before you gain any rudder authority. If you do that, and if you have your tailwheel locked, it's much easier than the spitfire. No toe brakes, no dancing on the pedals. Easy

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              #46
              Originally posted by john4pap View Post
              This thread echoes the discussions disputing the Spitfire's realism on take off on the grounds of its difficulty. So, before this escalates into something nasty, as heralded by the first reply to this thread, should smooth-takeoff-disbelievers consider that if some of us can do it, then it is possible?

              What I can add to this is that the statement about opening the throttle gently is a little inaccurate. You have to open it dead slowly so engine torque does not throw you hard to the left before you gain any rudder authority. If you do that, and if you have your tailwheel locked, it's much easier than the spitfire. No toe brakes, no dancing on the pedals. Easy

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              Yeah.. but it doesn't match reality..

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                #47
                Originally posted by amazingme View Post
                Too bad he doesn't mention the exact speed.. as it's MUCH lower than in DCS and you intentionally missed the part with "the amount of effort needed to produce the relevant nose movement seems exactly right" and if you read it further you'll see that "When you maneuver ABOVE 500km/h, two hands are required for a MORE aggressive performance.." whereas in DCS the stick forces are implemented as low as 300km/h!!!.
                Or.. "Above 550km/h, one peculiarity is a SLIGHT NOSE-DOWN trim change as you accelerate. This means that when you run in for an airshow above 500km/h, the airplane has a SLIGHT tucking sensation - a sort of desire to get DOWN to ground level." And a lot more like these..
                Tell me where and when do you notice any of these in DCS.. since you brought it up.

                He was talking about the takeoff.. you know.. the bit that this thread is about. All that 500kph flight business is for another thread.
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                  #48
                  All i will say is that engine torque is defo a factor in most warbirds, most warbirds also dont take off from full power static when they have a tail wheel due to said torque effect, when the tail is down it is less effective, true however there are various techniques for this, a modern spitfire pilot managed to crash one after he used too much brake with too high power on take off and nosed over, while a lot of pilots tend to land with the tail slightly low of level for a wheeler, yet the manual states 3 pointers if i recall correct.

                  as for aliaron being inneffective sure, it might be less effective then at higher speeds however i can say from experiance that you can still wing scrape by using aliarons, i had a rearwin up on one wheel at 40mph due to wind picking up the wing, it took near to full aliaron to counter it.

                  Another point is the method for taking off and landing, short take offs such as in a mustang are from a 3 point attitude and i believe it describes this in the manual, it also states to be cautious due to the torque and less effective controls. the second way is by raising the tail and then letting the aircraft fly off the runway which from what i have seen is the prefered way of taking most taildraggers off. the sketch part of this is the transition between tail down and tail up as the controls will require changes and as such over correction can occure.

                  another point about using high power on take offs is engine cooling, it is very easy too cook a merlin or db if you have the radiators closed while at high power, a 109 pilot damaged their engine and ended up in a field due to having closed radiators and overshooting the runway.

                  as others have pointed out with the spitfire thread this pandaros box, every aircraft behaves differently for every player with every control setup. i would say its generally about right, he said he hasnt flown it in a while, he might have control reset, nostalgic memory or something else.

                  all i'd suggest is lock the tailwheel, stick back, gradual increase to 1.4 ata, use a small amount of brake in jabs at lower speed the same as you would the rudder, then as the rudder becomes more effective, stick forwards, use more rudder to counter the swing, increase power and your off once you get the speed.

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                    #49
                    behaves differently for every player with every control setup
                    Indeed. This is more of a factor than people realize, or are willing to admit. And hence all the whining about how everything is incorrectly modelled. Seen this in all the CFSs I've ever flown, and both sides are equally guilty of it.
                    Last edited 09-15-2020, 08:19 AM.
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                      #50
                      The ground handling of these aircraft was so hairy it was damn near legendary.

                      Tiny, lightweight plane. Whopping powerful engine, and huge propeller. Narrow-track, taildragger landing gear that gives the ground handling properties of a three-legged ass that's had a few too many beers. Oh yeah, you can't see anything in front of you on the ground, either.

                      Many young pilots were killed just trying to learn how to take off and land these metal monsters. World War 2 wasn't all guts and glory, a good portion of fatalities were attributed to young people just trying to learn to fly an airplane type that no young inexperienced pilot has any business trying to fly in any situation except a desperate, all-out war.

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                        #51
                        Originally posted by sandcat View Post
                        Would a BF-109K have more torque than a dora or spitfire? I can easily counter the torque in the dora and spitfire. However in the BF-109 full stick and rudder can't stop it from drifting off to the left.
                        https://youtu.be/pvKs9VLUcCg?t=939

                        https://youtu.be/pvKs9VLUcCg?t=1404

                        https://youtu.be/OaZ6lkqUul4
                        Last edited 09-17-2020, 11:17 PM.
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                          #52
                          Bf-109 well known feature is that tail vertical stabilizer is very small compare to other planes but the tail is significant longer.
                          This makes two things,
                          First it is hard to control at low speeds
                          Second because of the long tail rudder is quite effective at Yawing plane left right so pilot can easy bring aim to make a shoot even if nose is quite off the target left/right
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                            #53
                            Originally posted by grafspee View Post
                            Bf-109 well known feature is that tail vertical stabilizer is very small compare to other planes but the tail is significant longer.

                            This makes two things,

                            First it is hard to control at low speeds

                            Second because of the long tail rudder is quite effective at Yawing plane left right so pilot can easy bring aim to make a shoot even if nose is quite off the target left/right
                            You're contradicting yourself.. and the rudder is large enough for yawing the plane, even at low speeds, but in reality.

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                              #54
                              Originally posted by amazingme View Post
                              You're contradicting yourself.. and the rudder is large enough for yawing the plane, even at low speeds, but in reality.

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                              I'm not, at high speeds small rudder is no problem, but long tail change plane behavior compare to one with short tail and bigger rudder surface..
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                                #55
                                Watch this, 1 take off 2 points of view.
                                From outside take off looks smooth, but once you jump in cockpit you will see how much this bf-109 drifted to the left during take off it got nasty left swing just before lift off, and this pilot used i think 1.2ATA
                                Start watching from 1:30 is you don't want to look at bf-109 start up.

                                If you watch closely couple of moments after tail lift of what is happening with the plane, DCS bf109 act very similar to this real one.
                                Last edited 09-26-2020, 07:15 PM.
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