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I don't think the take-off difficulty is realistic.

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    #21
    Originally posted by Art-J View Post
    @Sandcat

    First of all, stick full right doesn't work and shouldn't work in initial phase of takeoff roll for two reasons:
    a) ailerons are outside of propwash, obviously;
    b) ailerons don't work at low speeds;

    Something is not matching correctly then:

    BF109 rudder:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTOMknkYt6g


    Spitfire rudder:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoLy1vCF6f0



    The spitfire starts to get rudder authority at 4-5 km/h. The BF109 gets barely any rudder authority at 28 km/h.

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      #22
      A video is better than any explanation i suppose
      Take a look at this one and find a bug please?

      There is no tricks or cheat it's the game pure
      I think you have to search on an other way to find a solution.
      the game is OK.

      PS: if i'm able to do that ,why somebody else could not do same?

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        #23
        This is my way.
        sigpic

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          #24
          I take off with full power, stick back and right, rudder right, no brake at all.
          This may not be correct procedure but it works all the time. Of course I reduce rudder and let the stick advance to neutral very quickly as she picks up speed.
          LeCuvier
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            #25
            Take off isn't that bad at all. ATA to 1.4 (not more than that), and off you go. Some rudder input to keep her straight and ... airborne.
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              #26
              i had a rough time with it when i started
              now its so easy and straightforward that i wonder how i ever could mess it up

              funny what practice does
              hahaha hey look at me i surely know more about aviation and coding than actual industry professionals hired for their competency because i have read jalopnik and wikipedia i bet theyve never even heard of google LOL

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                #27
                The funny thing is that the OP compared the take off in DCS with the real thing and you guys jumped in to give advice on how to do it in DCS..

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                  #28
                  I found the 109 to be the easiest module to get airborne in, after the P51.
                  Gentle on the throttle up to 1.35 or so ATA, a touch of right wheel brake for line then a smidgen of nose forward and right aileron at the fast part of the T/O roll and it gets airborne by itself.
                  Very docile and easy to get airborne IMO. Landing is also rather pleasant too, especially if you raise the cockpit camera up a bit for forward visibility.
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                    #29
                    The probwash creates the airflow for rudders but it´s not simulated in DCS. Think, that is the main problem and why it is so difficult. Hope that one far day ED could take a look about it...


                    at this Video you can clearly see the lift effect on the tail section forced by the probwash…
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BG322DMa8Q
                    so the take off should be much easyer as it is for now.

                    cheers
                    Tom
                    sigpic
                    Born to fly but forced to work.

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                      #30
                      Originally posted by TOMCATZ View Post
                      The probwash creates the airflow for rudders but it´s not simulated in DCS. Think, that is the main problem and why it is so difficult. Hope that one far day ED could take a look about it...


                      at this Video you can clearly see the lift effect on the tail section forced by the probwash…
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BG322DMa8Q
                      so the take off should be much easyer as it is for now.

                      cheers
                      Tom
                      Thanks for posting this, I wanted to do the same.. but it's just blowing in the wind..

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                        #31
                        As usual with 1-oh-whiners, lots of moaning, lots of feelings, zero evidence.

                        And no, one dismally grainy video of a completely different model of 109 does not count as evidence.

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                          #32
                          Originally posted by DD_Fenrir View Post
                          As usual with 1-oh-whiners, lots of moaning, lots of feelings, zero evidence.

                          And no, one dismally grainy video of a completely different model of 109 does not count as evidence.
                          Watch and learn:




                          And please, stop with attacking people and calling names. If you have something smart to say do it, otherwise you're just making noise. Thank you.
                          Last edited 09-14-2020, 12:00 PM.
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                            #33
                            The closest example to a Bf 109K that is currently airworthy is actually a HA-1112-M1L re-engined with a DB601.

                            From here: http://goodall.com.au/warbirds-direc...serschmitt.pdf

                            D-FEHD Hans Dittes, Speyer 29.8.86/95
                            (rebuilt at Saarlouis, Germany .91/95,
                            mod. to Bf109G standard with DB601 engine
                            and parts of Bf 109G-10 WNr151591,
                            ff 23.3.95 Mannheim as Luftwaffe "2+-")
                            and here is Mark Hannah's description of the takeoff : http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Document...%20109_ENG.pdf)
                            Last edited 09-14-2020, 12:18 PM.

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                              #34
                              Further elaboration on a G-4 variant here: https://www.warhistoryonline.com/gue...xperience.html

                              Poor ground handling traits are only partly caused by the narrow wheel track. The extreme tipped outward angle of the wheels as they meet the ground is what instigates most excursions off of the runway. If any more weight is placed on one main wheel than the other, that wheel gets enough traction to turn the plane to the other side. Every bump, crosswind, and the rotational torque from any power change makes this craft carve a turn like a toy wheel rolled while leaning to one side. You are not given the immediate yaw in one place that other tail wheel airplanes experience unless you try to land on a hard runway. Watching a Bf109 take off on grass from behind sheds much light. Once the tail comes up, the aircraft yaws to the side by 10 degrees. Each tire struggles for dominance over the other. Grass is thrown out in little rooster tails. Imagine each wheel as a heavyweight boxer in a title fight, with you as the undersized referee, too weak to guarantee complete control. To stop a divergent arcing turn, there is at your disposal one tiny rudder optimized for high-speed flight and brakes that were designed to taxi on 1000m square fields.

                              Ground stability is further degraded by the high center of mass of the engine and the overpowering gyroscopic behavior of the propeller. Raising the tail fast gives such a large yaw to the left that the small rudder is unable to compensate. Oskar Boesch felt the most important information for me to learn was first, the correct rate of throttle movement from idle until tail raise, and second, the ideal rate of moving the control stick forward to raise the tail into the exact flight attitude. Huge increases in safety would come from that discipline alone. He put his hand on mine and rehearsed the exact speed of all control movements, imagining a glass of champagne sitting undisturbed on the panel through the entire takeoff roll. The Bf109 rudder must be frenetically moved to maintain heading on takeoff, never allowing the aircraft to diverge. It has been said that if the direction of take-off roll is allowed to change, one must not try to correct, but instead accept the new heading until off the ground. Attempts to correct with strong opposite rudder result in such severe oversteer, that the ensuing high-speed ground loop toward the other direction could be deadly. Can you see how this is unlikely to work on a narrow runway with trees on each side?

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                                #35
                                Bearing in mind these reports come from pilots WHO HAVE ACTUALLY FLOWN REAL late Bf 109 variants.

                                These tally with my experiences of getting the DCS 109 off the ground.

                                In response you provide nothing more than a couple of videos which show competent experienced pilots who know how to take-off safely in the 109 to justify you claims that the 109 is wrong.

                                And yet there are DCS pilots here, who have demonstrably proven that they are able to takeoff in the 109 without the level of drama and inaccuracy that you imply is inherent to the DCS 109.

                                So it boils down to "you are doing it wrong".

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                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by DD_Fenrir View Post
                                  The closest exmaple to a Bf 109K that is currently airworthy is actually a HA-1112-M1L re-engined with a DB601.

                                  From here: http://goodall.com.au/warbirds-direc...serschmitt.pdf



                                  and here is Mark Hannah's description of the takeoff : http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Document...%20109_ENG.pdf)
                                  We all know them and it's exactly.. how it ISN'T in DCS.. for example:

                                  "Power gently up and keep it coming smoothly up to 40 inches (1.3ATA?). Keep the tail down initially, and keep it straight by feel rather than any positive technique. Tail is coming up now, and the rudder is becoming effective. Unconscious corrections to the rudder are happening all the time. It's incredibly entertaining to watch the 109 lift off the ground; the rudder literally flashes around!"

                                  Or.. "The roll rate is very good and very positive below about 400km/h, and the amount of effort needed to produce the relevant noise movement seems exactly right".

                                  And so on.. a lot more.. It seems that you have NO experience whatsoever in flying the 109 in DCS.
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                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by cromhunt View Post
                                    A video is better than any explanation i suppose
                                    Take a look at this one and find a bug please?

                                    There is no tricks or cheat it's the game pure
                                    I think you have to search on an other way to find a solution.
                                    the game is OK.

                                    PS: if i'm able to do that ,why somebody else could not do same?
                                    I think this is some of the best DCS flying I have seen, you really have masterful control on take-off.

                                    However, I think that the minimum proficiency required to take off in a 109 is too high. Specifically because it does not allow the pilot to catch mistakes in a take off roll and correct for them. And I think that is the buggy part. In the Dora and Spitfire, it is possible with some rudder and some stick to regain control of the direction. While with the BF109, as you can see in the video I posted, as soon as it drifts left a bit, full rudder and full stick can not correct it. Also the control surfaces appear to have less authority and require more speed for authority than the spitfire. (Spitfire gets rudder at 4km/h, BF at 28km/h)

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                                      #38
                                      And... the Bf 109 is not a Spitfire.

                                      Control surface areas = different
                                      Vertical tail area = different
                                      Control surface moment arms = different
                                      Propellors = different
                                      Engine output = different
                                      Wing area = different
                                      Wing planform = different
                                      Tail wheel geometry = different
                                      Fuselage geometry = different

                                      Ergo,

                                      Reaction to torque forces on take-off = .......

                                      Hazard a guess.

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                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by amazingme View Post

                                        It seems that you have NO experience whatsoever in flying the 109 in

                                        DCS.
                                        Enough to get on and off the ground without inducing the "FM bugged" hysteria you seem to suffer with.

                                        Clue:

                                        "Tail is coming up now, and the rudder is becoming effective."

                                        Kind of insinuates that it wasn't very effective beforehand, n'est pas?

                                        As for roll rate, seems to marry pretty much with what most contemporary pilots describe; faster then the Mustang, similar to the Spit. I get good roll rates (particularly to the left) as long as I coordinate with a good bootful of rudder. This correlates to descriptions by by every pilots notes I have ever referenced regards flying the 109, of any variant - that is that good 109 flying requires good rudder work.

                                        This indicates a marginal stability around the normal axis. Which further indicates that Willy made the vertical surfaces as small as he dared and only increased them as a last resort and to the smallest possible area he could get away with.
                                        Last edited 09-14-2020, 03:41 PM.

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                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by DD_Fenrir View Post
                                          Enough to get on and off the ground without inducing the "FM bugged" hysteria you seem to suffer with.

                                          Clue:

                                          "Tail is coming up now, and the rudder is becoming effective."

                                          Kind of insinuates that it wasn't very effective beforehand, n'est pas?

                                          As for roll rate, seems to marry pretty much with what most contemporary pilots describe; faster then the Mustang, similar to the Spit. I get good roll rates (particularly to the left) as long as I coordinate with a good bootful of rudder. This correlates to descriptions by by every pilots notes I have ever referenced regards flying the 109, of any variant - that is that good 109 flying requires good rudder work.

                                          This indicates a marginal stability around the normal axis. Which further indicates that Willy made the vertical surfaces as small as he dared and only increased them as a last resort and to the smallest possible area he could get away with.
                                          Too bad he doesn't mention the exact speed.. as it's MUCH lower than in DCS and you intentionally missed the part with "the amount of effort needed to produce the relevant nose movement seems exactly right" and if you read it further you'll see that "When you maneuver ABOVE 500km/h, two hands are required for a MORE aggressive performance.." whereas in DCS the stick forces are implemented as low as 300km/h!!!.
                                          Or.. "Above 550km/h, one peculiarity is a SLIGHT NOSE-DOWN trim change as you accelerate. This means that when you run in for an airshow above 500km/h, the airplane has a SLIGHT tucking sensation - a sort of desire to get DOWN to ground level." And a lot more like these..
                                          Tell me where and when do you notice any of these in DCS.. since you brought it up.
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