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I don't think the take-off difficulty is realistic.

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    I don't think the take-off difficulty is realistic.

    I don't think the hard difficulty of take-off in a BF109 K is realistic.

    When I first had issues with the spitfire, I looked at real life video of a take-off from cockpit. The pilot deflects the stick all the way to the right, and then accelerates with small amounts of rudder.

    I imitated that and from that point, I can now reliably take off in a spitfire straight and slow.

    However in the BF, trying to hold stick right has no effect. I even tried pre-flight +20 trim on the aileron, no effect. What ever I do, the engine torque will pull the plane to the left. And then the only way to survive a take-off is to play the "brake/rudder minigame" which has a very sharp cut-off point where the plane just slides to the left and the take off is ruined.


    What kills the take off is the duration of the very precarious brake/rudder minigame. Shortening that shortens the amount of time exposed to it. So I learned to completely max out throttle to get high speeds, then nose down and rudder control to take off.

    However that is not realistic. World War 2 footage and modern day recordings indicate that take-offs are slow rolls and you do not see the pilot desperately twirling all over the runway or even worse taking off in a very shot time with 100% throttle.


    Now the counter argument will likely be that ww2 pilots are elite warriors that were exceptional in their skills.

    However that is not true.

    The average 20 year old kid in ww2 had only a few hours of instructions and training before doing their first take off. They had no access to simulators. So if the planes were really that difficult to take-off, it would have caused far more accidents and the plane would not pass testing for use in the army.

    Because planes are built so an average or below average trained pilot can take off in it.

    Yes I know the BF109 was prone to take-off accidents, but it is nowhere at the rate in DCS. I can handle the spitfire and the Dora, they took some practice to learn, however the BF109 is a pure minigame of tapping brakes/rudder in just teh right amount with a very narrow tolerance for overshooting, which causes the plane to get drifted to the left. This feels more like a gamey minigame.

    It should not be the case that the only safe way to take off is to slam throttle 100% to get done with the acceleration phase as fast as possible to avoid the brake minigame.

    And I think the engine torque should not be able to overtake the plane when the pilot deflects stick full right + rudder full right.






    Real life videos
    There is none of the violent drift to the left or attempts to correct for it on these take-off videos





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO9mEv5Ve54


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzUUlO6ihwE


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGhMGQst4lo


    Ingame, when the balance is not exactly where it should be, the torque takes over and the plane curves to the left, no amount of aileron and rudder can correct it.


    Official tutorial: 2500 RPM + gentle stick and rudder (does not work)

    The official DCS tutorial on take-off say you should accelerate to 2500 rpm and use "gentle" rudder and stick input to keep level. However the engine pushes the plane left at 1500 RPM and full right stick and full right rudder can not stop it.
    Last edited 09-13-2020, 03:25 PM.

    #2
    Originally posted by sandcat View Post
    I don't think the hard difficulty of take-off in a BF109 K is realistic.

    When I first had issues with the spitfire, I looked at real life video of a take-off from cockpit. The pilot deflects the stick all the way to the right, and then accelerates with small amounts of rudder.

    I imitated that and from that point, I can now reliably take off in a spitfire straight and slow.

    However in the BF, trying to hold stick right has no effect. I even tried pre-flight +20 trim on the aileron, no effect. What ever I do, the engine torque will pull the plane to the left. And then the only way to survive a take-off is to play the "brake/rudder minigame" which has a very sharp cut-off point where the plane just slides to the left and the take off is ruined.


    What kills the take off is the duration of the very precarious brake/rudder minigame. Shortening that shortens the amount of time exposed to it. So I learned to completely max out throttle to get high speeds, then nose down and rudder control to take off.

    However that is not realistic. World War 2 footage and modern day recordings indicate that take-offs are slow rolls and you do not see the pilot desperately twirling all over the runway or even worse taking off in a very shot time with 100% throttle.


    Now the counter argument will likely be that ww2 pilots are elite warriors that were exceptional in their skills.

    However that is nonsense.

    The average 20 year old kid in ww2 had only a few hours of instructions and training before doing their first take off. They had no access to simulators. So if the planes were really that difficult to take-off, it would have caused far more accidents and the plane would not pass testing for use in the army.

    Because planes are built so an average or below average trained pilot can take off in it.

    Yes I know the BF109 was prone to take-off accidents, but it is nowhere at the rate in DCS. I can handle the spitfire and the Dora, they took some practice to learn, however the BF109 is a pure minigame of tapping brakes/rudder in just teh right amount with a very narrow tolerance for overshooting, which causes the plane to get drifted to the left. This feels more like a gamey minigame.

    It should not be the case that the only safe way to take off is to slam throttle 100% to get done with the acceleration phase as fast as possible to avoid the brake minigame.

    And I think the engine torque should not be able to overtake the plane when the pilot deflects stick full right + rudder full right.
    Careful.. you're opening a Pandora's box..

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      #3
      I haven't flown it for months. I managed to sort of come to terms with it, but it got boring because it seems to me that takeoff assistance or what it is called, couldn't be turned off when I tried. Might be fixed now.

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        #4
        I dunno... I haven't flown the 109 in a while but I remember it being pretty straightforward compared to the Spit. Certainly not a cockpit 'spaz-fest' trying to keep it down the runway centre line.

        Long shot: curve or limit on your aileron control maybe?

        Mission set up with a big runway level crosswind?

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          #5
          The mission is a new mission with zero wind.
          The curves have no limits that prevent maximum deflection.

          I think it might be a bug what is happening ingame.

          I have recorded what happens with FULL stick right and FULL rudder right. At 1500 RPM. The plane barely can keep itself straight. And any slight offbalance will cause drift into the grass.
          (This video is not a take-off attempt, just wanted to show how much the engine power overcomes the aileron and rudder).



          Video of strong left drift:


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViOkhYM2Gl4


          For comparison, in the DCS tutorial, Wags is gently rolling it up to 2500 RPM:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXCGwgW6GNY
          Last edited 09-13-2020, 03:59 PM.

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            #6
            DCS does not accurately simulate accelerated airflow over the tail surfaces from the prop wash. I suspect this is a major reason why engine torque effects are considerably lighter than what they should be.

            The 109 is the "torquiest" of the current DCS models so it can overcome the ineffective rudder due to the lack of prop blast modeling pretty easily. The solution is something I would not recommend doing in a real airplane but using the right toe brake will make the DCS 109 go straight until you get enough rudder authority.
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              #7
              BF109 take off

              Nothing weird.
              I did an attempt today and take off working fine.
              Did not use brakes,just push the rudder to the right a bit.
              I wonder how you manage your take off with taildraggers and therefore with the BF109?

              1-is it that you let rolling three points,and pull stick at the take off speed?

              2-is it that you begin to roll push the stick forward upto get the tail lifted,and at this moment push slightly the throttle upto the take off speed?

              If you are doing the first exemple your rudder will still with not any efficiency.
              i could make a video to show you the stuff if you are in doubt with what i said.
              Last edited 09-16-2020, 11:28 PM.

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                #8
                Originally posted by pmiceli View Post
                DCS does not accurately simulate accelerated airflow over the tail surfaces from the prop wash. I suspect this is a major reason why engine torque effects are considerably lighter than what they should be.

                The 109 is the "torquiest" of the current DCS models so it can overcome the ineffective rudder due to the lack of prop blast modeling pretty easily. The solution is something I would not recommend doing in a real airplane but using the right toe brake will make the DCS 109 go straight until you get enough rudder authority.
                Would a BF-109K have more torque than a dora or spitfire? I can easily counter the torque in the dora and spitfire. However in the BF-109 full stick and rudder can't stop it from drifting off to the left.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by pmiceli View Post
                  DCS does not accurately simulate accelerated airflow over the tail surfaces from the prop wash. I suspect this is a major reason why engine torque effects are considerably lighter than what they should be.

                  The 109 is the "torquiest" of the current DCS models so it can overcome the ineffective rudder due to the lack of prop blast modeling pretty easily. The solution is something I would not recommend doing in a real airplane but using the right toe brake will make the DCS 109 go straight until you get enough rudder authority.
                  Exactly what I do.. for the same reasons..

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by sandcat View Post
                    Would a BF-109K have more torque than a dora or spitfire? I can easily counter the torque in the dora and spitfire. However in the BF-109 full stick and rudder can't stop it from drifting off to the left.
                    All the 'bad' things are augmented in the K-4.

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                      #11
                      Wow! So dark in your cockpit. Out of curiosity what do you have your gamma set to?

                      You need to pull back on the joystick to force the tail down until the rudder has enough airflow over it to be effective.

                      It is important to lock the rear tail wheel for takeoffs (although once experienced it's not that big a deal). This is why the 109 is a little easier to get off the ground and land than the Spitfire (in DCS - can't speak to real aircraft).

                      Holding the stick back to give more tail authority until air speed is high enough to let it lift will get you most of the way there I'd think.

                      There's a lot going during take off in this beastie - you're close - you'll get it soon!
                      Last edited 09-13-2020, 05:24 PM.

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                        #12
                        I think I will agree with you, Sandcat.

                        I haven't flown BF very long time, and I remember my take-offs were flawless and nice. Last week, I experienced exactly what you told above.

                        Full right rudder has no effect to balance the airplane enough. BF highly tends to go left and you have to use right brake to keep the BF in line.
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by cromhunt View Post
                          Nothing weird.
                          I did an attempt today and take off working fine.
                          Did not use brakes,just push the rudder to the right a bit.
                          I wonder how you manage your take off with taildaggers and therefore with the BF109?

                          1-is it that you let rolling three points,and pull stick at the take off speed?

                          2-is it that you begin to roll push the stick forward upto get the tail lifted,and at this moment push slightly the throttle upto the take off speed?

                          If you are doing the first exemple your rudder will still with not any efficiency.
                          i could make a video to show you the stuff if you are in doubt with what i said.
                          On the sptfire and dora, it is possible to counter the engine causing the left drift. On the spitfire, I can control the take off via stick to the right and rudder (even during starting roll)

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by reece146 View Post
                            Wow! So dark in your cockpit. Out of curiosity what do you have your gamma set to?

                            You need to pull back on the joystick to force the tail down until the rudder has enough airflow over it to be effective.

                            It is important to lock the rear tail wheel for takeoffs (although once experienced it's not that big a deal). This is why the 109 is a little easier to get off the ground and land than the Spitfire (in DCS - can't speak to real aircraft).

                            Holding the stick back to give more tail authority until air speed is high enough to let it lift will get you most of the way there I'd think.

                            There's a lot going during take off in this beastie - you're close - you'll get it soon!

                            It is a bit brighter ingame. I use 1.6 gamma. I think the video compression made it a bit dark.

                            I think this is good advice however, the 109 does not have a tail wheel lock like this, it uses a lever.

                            Also on the spitfire, I can control take-off by stick to the right and slight rudder. Even during slow roll the rudder has enough effect and the right stick cancels out left drift.

                            The same on the Dora, stick + slight rudder works. Even if it slips, there is enough power to correct it. But on the BF109 it does not have enough power to correct.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Devrim View Post
                              I think I will agree with you, Sandcat.

                              I haven't flown BF very long time, and I remember my take-offs were flawless and nice. Last week, I experienced exactly what you told above.

                              Full right rudder has no effect to balance the airplane enough. BF highly tends to go left and you have to use right brake to keep the BF in line.
                              I am sure this is a bug. The control surfaces and engine power of the dora, spitfire and BF are not that different. For BF Ingame maximum effort on rudder and aileron won't stop the drift, only the extra tap on the wheel brake. And I think that is not realistic, as the videos of real life take-offs don't show this amount of effort required.

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by sandcat View Post
                                I am sure this is a bug. The control surfaces and engine power of the dora, spitfire and BF are not that different. For BF Ingame maximum effort on rudder and aileron won't stop the drift, only the extra tap on the wheel brake.
                                Indeed..

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by sandcat View Post
                                  I think this is good advice however, the 109 does not have a tail wheel lock like this, it uses a lever.
                                  Yep, it needs to be moved into the lock position. Pulling back on the stick is meant to increase the force on the wheel to make the wheel have a higher friction against the runway surface and as a result control the tail. In the Bf109 there is no back stick, wheel lock mechanism.

                                  Think about this, with no up elevator to drive the tail down with prop wash as you dial in more power the tail will get lighter and lighter and lead to having almost no longitudinal control of the airplane.

                                  You get the idea, just fleshing it out for anyone else following along.

                                  Also on the spitfire, I can control take-off by stick to the right and slight rudder. Even during slow roll the rudder has enough effect and the right stick cancels out left drift.

                                  The same on the Dora, stick + slight rudder works. Even if it slips, there is enough power to correct it. But on the BF109 it does not have enough power to correct.
                                  We can go down the rabbit hole of analyzing the effect the caster angle of the tail wheel has on the handling dynamics (real, simulated match?) but short of having access to the src code between them it's a futile exercise. We are just users here.

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                                    #18
                                    Sorry to point that but you are on a wrong way with the stick full right or so.The stick have to be still centered if the wind is calm or coming front with not any crossing;using the stick to counter the wind crossing is the only moment where you push it right or left at the take off.As you have to do it when landing.
                                    For take off properly.
                                    you have to lift the tail first by rolling slowly and progressive.The help is provided with locking the tail wheel.
                                    Once done (tail lifted)you will be able to control your line with the rudder.No brakes only pedals and maintain stick pushed forward upto the take off speed.
                                    There is no bug at all.
                                    Last edited 09-16-2020, 11:30 PM.

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                                      #19
                                      Haven't flown the 109 in a while, too busy enjoying the Jug. I'll have to check this out. I just remember having to give quite a bit of right rudder on the roll... but it's been a while...
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                                        #20
                                        @Sandcat

                                        First of all, stick full right doesn't work and shouldn't work in initial phase of takeoff roll for two reasons:
                                        a) ailerons are outside of propwash, obviously;
                                        b) ailerons don't work at low speeds;

                                        As for the rudder, yes, its effectiveness is a low in DCS, however, you don't need to use brakes to counteract it. I never did and still don't, because I don't need to and neither do you.

                                        Do what pilots of restored 109s do, throttle up very slowly, up to 1.1-1.2 ATA at first, and once the plane rolls quite fast already (and rudder becomes effective enough), then go for higher ATA.

                                        Or for even easier job, takeoff in manual, not in auto mode. The prop will be less loaded and you won't even need to full rudder to control the plane.

                                        The only noticeable change in takeoff and landing behaviour happened when they reduced lateral tyre grip in all DCS warbirds two years ago and thus tailwheel lock in 109 became less effective - Wags' video from 2014 shows how much easier it was to control the yaw back before the change. Otherwise, the 109 behaves pretty much like it always was.
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