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    I realize I'm pouring gasoline on a fire here, but it's worth discussing since it is related to the rules: Starting at 35:51, Jell-O asks SYPH and Cosmo about G limits on the F-14 A/B: https://youtu.be/VSwLSEQjxfg?t=2151

    They say that the A/B was designed for 7.5 g, but the crew was ordered limited to 6.5. But there was no limiter and the pilot says that "Trust me, there was many times that we went down there and tapped that little guy" "The gauge" "Yeah so we wouldn't get in trouble."

    Here's my 2 cents. I think exceeding the g-limit on the F-14 was more common than the pilots in this thread are willing to accept/admit, but it had a far more negative consequence to the fleet than the sim gamers are willing to accept/admit.

    Edit: https://youtu.be/VSwLSEQjxfg?t=2486 And here at 41:25ish they begin talking about the maintenance nightmare of the F-14 and how they had to bend their own metal to replace parts, tons of panels to remove. If you listen further, they discuss how the airframe was extremely durable and there was a time on the Kennedy when a hornet got blown into a tomcat, and the hornet was heavily damaged but the tomcat flew the next day. Anecdotal but interesting. It still seems to me that the guys who flew the tomcat were willing to exceed g-limits and keep it hush hush, but I also feel as though this heavily contributed to the maintenance issues of the jet.

    A few minutes later in the 46 minute section the pilot talks about that his squadron was allowed to manually control the flaps in combat, and because of their corner speed they really weren't at risk of exceeding g-limit of the airframe (supporting what the fighter pilots here have been saying), but they had OTHER maintenance issues from breaking the mechanisms relating to the flaps.

    Again, the F-14 was used and abused.
    Last edited by Relic; 09-28-2020, 10:40 PM.
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      Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event

      Originally posted by Relic View Post
      I realize I'm pouring gasoline on a fire here, but it's worth discussing since it is related to the rules: Starting at 35:51, Jell-O asks SYPH and Cosmo about G limits on the F-14 A/B: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSwLSEQjxfg&t=1353s

      They say that the A/B was designed for 7.5 g, but the crew was ordered limited to 6.5. But there was no limiter and the pilot says that "Trust me, there was many times that we went down there and tapped that little guy" "The gauge" "Yeah so we wouldn't get in trouble."

      Here's my 2 cents. I think exceeding the g-limit on the F-14 was more common than the pilots in this thread are willing to accept/admit, but it had a far more negative consequence to the fleet than the sim gamers are willing to accept/admit.


      No one is saying with the 14 that is was common or uncommon. All anyone is saying is that it shouldnt be done and bad things can happen if you do exceed those limits.

      Comment


        Originally posted by M0ltar View Post
        No one is saying with the 14 that is was common or uncommon. All anyone is saying is that it shouldnt be done and bad things can happen if you do exceed those limits.
        I agree, and I agree with the rules. I felt it necessary to investigate further and upon further inspection it seems as though both parties arguing in this thread have elements of truth.
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          Originally posted by maxsin72 View Post
          I agree with you that is not the norm but this is obvious and no, i don't think that disallowed "configuration" was a common tactic.
          I think it was a possibility for that kind of pilot very skilled, often chosen by superiors to fight in particular situations: best F15 pilots vs best F14 pilots because nobody wanted to lost the challenge, so Snodgrass was allowed to did all that, him and probably few others while thousands upon thousands of fighter pilots were not allowed. Also Joe Satrapa pulled his F14 at 8.5g and Keith Nance admittend he didn't look many times at 6.5 g limit. So Snodgrass is not alone and other pilots perhaps didn't respect the limits but i think much of them won't like to publicize all this.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKA3...outu.be&t=3338
          These are again, one offs, not repeat use, and one example of Schrödinger's cat--if he didn't check the G meter, then he didn't over G...

          But the logical argument is that if it was not trained, it was not meant to be employed. Snodgrass going up against another fighter is war games, and he gamed the game.

          What seems to be forgotten is that these jets are weapons, meant to be used in combat, to gain or maintain aerial superiority, to support or allow boots on the ground to gain and maintain strategic objectives.

          If everyone pulls G and breaks their jet, because they want a kill, we're going to lose air superiority pretty quick, and the ground guys are going to get hammered.

          There is a common adage, you fight how you train. They aren't trained because that isn't how it is meant to be fought.

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            Originally posted by snipy View Post
            These are again, one offs, not repeat use, and one example of Schrödinger's cat--if he didn't check the G meter, then he didn't over G...

            But the logical argument is that if it was not trained, it was not meant to be employed. Snodgrass going up against another fighter is war games, and he gamed the game.

            What seems to be forgotten is that these jets are weapons, meant to be used in combat, to gain or maintain aerial superiority, to support or allow boots on the ground to gain and maintain strategic objectives.

            If everyone pulls G and breaks their jet, because they want a kill, we're going to lose air superiority pretty quick, and the ground guys are going to get hammered.

            There is a common adage, you fight how you train. They aren't trained because that isn't how it is meant to be fought.
            There was confusion (who would of thought through text). And I did not realize this (over g'ing in the game) was a sore issue. It's a arcade game after all. know you don't over g a jet. I know there are lower g limits with load outs, like fuel tanks fuel quantity, bombs etc. But I knew of an example where a guy over g'd to get onto a migs 6. But the guy answered me with no pilot would do that. It's was kinda like, hey that guy got into a car wreck. And someone answers, nobody gets into car wrecks. And the correct response should of been, nobody gets into car wrecks on purpose. Hopefully this clears it up. And I don't get an encyclopedia of response on how I'm wrong.
            Last edited by Carlos; 09-29-2020, 03:59 PM.

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              Originally posted by Carlos View Post
              There was confusion (who would of thought through text). I know you don't over g a jet. I know there are lower g limits with load outs, like fuel tanks fuel quantity, bombs etc. But I knew of an example where a guy over g'd to get onto a migs 6. But the guy answered me with no pilot would do that. It's was kinda like, hey that guy got into a car wreck. And someone answers, nobody gets into car wrecks. And the correct response should of been, nobody gets into car wrecks on purpose. Hopefully this clears it up. And I don't get an encyclopedia of response on how I'm wrong.

              I think saying something like "This guy over G'd the jet to get a kill, but it wasn't a good idea, even though it worked." would go a long way. Because the disconnect seems to be not the existence of the action, but the existence of the action... and its validity as a common tactic.


              If we're just discussing things that have happened, I, and you, could argue that kamikaze should be a valid method. Right? We can prove its existence. (Which you've done.) We can prove its semi effectiveness. (Which you've done.) But its hard to argue its validity as a common tactic.

              Comment


                Originally posted by snipy View Post
                I think saying something like "This guy over G'd the jet to get a kill, but it wasn't a good idea, even though it worked." would go a long way. Because the disconnect seems to be not the existence of the action, but the existence of the action... and its validity as a common tactic.


                If we're just discussing things that have happened, I, and you, could argue that kamikaze should be a valid method. Right? We can prove its existence. (Which you've done.) We can prove its semi effectiveness. (Which you've done.) But its hard to argue its validity as a common tactic.

                Excellent point. I got target fixated on, 'no pilot would do that'.

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                  I do not know about the 14 and I'm only talking about in the DCS game. But in the 15 the audible sounds for over g are when you're in fact already over g'ing. There are no audible sounds to alert you before you over g as far as I know. And you obviously are not feeling the physiological effects to know when to stop pulling on the stick.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by snipy View Post
                    These are again, one offs, not repeat use, and one example of Schrödinger's cat--if he didn't check the G meter, then he didn't over G...

                    But the logical argument is that if it was not trained, it was not meant to be employed. Snodgrass going up against another fighter is war games, and he gamed the game.

                    What seems to be forgotten is that these jets are weapons, meant to be used in combat, to gain or maintain aerial superiority, to support or allow boots on the ground to gain and maintain strategic objectives.

                    If everyone pulls G and breaks their jet, because they want a kill, we're going to lose air superiority pretty quick, and the ground guys are going to get hammered.

                    There is a common adage, you fight how you train. They aren't trained because that isn't how it is meant to be fought.

                    I think nowadays it's how you write. However, keep in mind that we are talking about events from 45 years ago and perhaps things were different then from today. There are several testimonies of old F14 pilots who speak of an out-of-the-way use on the internet and, perhaps, others that have not ended up on the internet have. So maybe, at the time, it wasn't so uncommon for F14 pilots to do forbidden things. After all, Grumman seems to have over-engineered the F14 making it much more robust than the minimum specifications required

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                      I know both of you guys who are arguing against Mover are from the justdogfight server. You are great fighters, almost impossible to beat. Thats great. But its a game.
                      And Mover is the greatest addition we can have to the community to add realism, dont p*** him off. So just lets have fun on the server, and let the fights on the tournament go as they go.
                      I don't want to expose you Maxin, I really don't but I have to for the sake of the discussion. Your opinon and contribution for realism seems to be a really off.
                      I shot you down twice in an F16. Which can be easiy done with an HMCS. It is no real victory to me at all. Then I was out of everything, went home. . But then you chose to chase me, eat SAMs and crash into the runway in front of me me? Realistic flying or realistic tactics? I think not. Let Mover and the other people here, who try to take it serious, please do their thing.Please don't bully them and waste their time with you opinion.
                      Remember that replay?:

                      https://youtu.be/u9XJIfxN_Tg


                      Thats was the orignal text I was going to post before I realized the the thread went crazy again.
                      *****
                      Hey Mover.
                      Sorry to alter that thread again into a g-limitation discussion thread, but I am on your side.

                      I have been a military aircraft simulator fan since I can remember.

                      I started with strike commander in 1991, when I was 10, various Jane's sims, then finally transitioned to Falcon 4.0 and its later mods.
                      Most of the time I was playing it in the F16, because basically every sim had it simulated back then. So I was kind of familiarized already in it in every sim.

                      When I found out DCS is going to have an F18 and an F16 later I immediately switched to DCS, when the F18 was out.
                      So I already had a basic feeling in mind how dogfights should turn out against different aircraft.

                      Playing on multiplayer servers I was struggling in an F18 against an F14. And in an F16 against an F18. So I was thinking something must be really off in DCS.
                      I was watching out of the window seeing the F14 turn behind be like an RC plane. But thanks to you, pointing g limits out, it is perfectly clear to me whats happening.

                      In all the other previous sims I played, the F14 and the F18 were AI controlled. So the AI just did what the programmers told it to do. Respect the g limit, because you fly this particular aircraft. But every sim only gets as realistic as the people playing it in a realistic way, if the aircraft is controlled by a human. Humans will use the paddle switch in the F18 and pull 12 G in the F14 until they get restricted. The AI wont do that. As you brought attention to this topic to me I finally understand whats going on in DCS because the F16 must be one of the most realistic performing aircraft in DCS due to its very restrictive FLCS.

                      Maybe it might help to share my opinion as an old-school flight sim fan about g limits on your youtube channel too before the tournament is going to be streamed. I really am excited which aircraft will perform best this year, and I appreciate you and M0ltar doing your best to keep it as real as possible.

                      Fights on, and greetings from Germany.
                      Last edited by darkman222; 09-30-2020, 03:44 AM.

                      Comment


                        [QUOTE=Carlos;4502707]
                        Originally posted by Mover View Post

                        Hey I'm callsign Charlie. And the DOD pays me to know more than you. Thanks for what you guys do. And I put in a donation.

                        OK, now *that* was a good comeback! LOL.

                        But 2 point deduction for the misquote. "The Pentagon sees to it that I know more than you."
                        Last edited by hansangb; 09-30-2020, 01:27 AM.
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                          [QUOTE=hansangb;4505803]
                          Originally posted by Carlos View Post


                          OK, now *that* was a good comeback! LOL.

                          But 2 point deduction for the misquote. "The Pentagon sees to it that I know more than you."
                          I winged it. Lol

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by darkman222 View Post
                            I know both of you guys who are arguing against Mover are from the justdogfight server. You are great fighters, almost impossible to beat. Thats great. But its a game.
                            And Mover is the greatest addition we can have to the community to add realism, dont p*** him off. So just lets have fun on the server, and let the fights on the tournament go as they go.
                            I don't want to expose you Maxin, I really don't but I have to for the sake of the discussion. Your opinon and contribution for realism seems to be a really off.
                            I shot you down twice in an F16. Which can be easiy done with an HMCS. It is no real victory to me at all. Then I was out of everything, went home. . But then you chose to chase me, eat SAMs and crash into the runway in front of me me? Realistic flying or realistic tactics? I think not. Let Mover and the other people here, who try to take it serious, please do their thing.Please don't bully them and waste their time with you opinion.
                            Remember that replay?:

                            https://youtu.be/u9XJIfxN_Tg


                            Thats was the orignal text I was going to post before I realized the the thread went crazy again.
                            *****
                            Hey Mover.
                            Sorry to alter that thread again into a g-limitation discussion thread, but I am on your side.

                            I have been a military aircraft simulator fan since I can remember.

                            I started with strike commander in 1991, when I was 10, various Jane's sims, then finally transitioned to Falcon 4.0 and its later mods.
                            Most of the time I was playing it in the F16, because basically every sim had it simulated back then. So I was kind of familiarized already in it in every sim.

                            When I found out DCS is going to have an F18 and an F16 later I immediately switched to DCS, when the F18 was out.
                            So I already had a basic feeling in mind how dogfights should turn out against different aircraft.

                            Playing on multiplayer servers I was struggling in an F18 against an F14. And in an F16 against an F18. So I was thinking something must be really off in DCS.
                            I was watching out of the window seeing the F14 turn behind be like an RC plane. But thanks to you, pointing g limits out, it is perfectly clear to me whats happening.

                            In all the other previous sims I played, the F14 and the F18 were AI controlled. So the AI just did what the programmers told it to do. Respect the g limit, because you fly this particular aircraft. But every sim only gets as realistic as the people playing it in a realistic way, if the aircraft is controlled by a human. Humans will use the paddle switch in the F18 and pull 12 G in the F14 until they get restricted. The AI wont do that. As you brought attention to this topic to me I finally understand whats going on in DCS because the F16 must be one of the most realistic performing aircraft in DCS due to its very restrictive FLCS.

                            Maybe it might help to share my opinion as an old-school flight sim fan about g limits on your youtube channel too before the tournament is going to be streamed. I really am excited which aircraft will perform best this year, and I appreciate you and M0ltar doing your best to keep it as real as possible.

                            Fights on, and greetings from Germany.

                            Hi Darkman i'ìm sorry but we are free people of free countries and we can have different opinion. I never bullied anybody but i was bullied because they told me i'm only a "fanboy", "troll or is like a kid without a clue.... or an adult with some broken mental faculties...." and so on but i never answered to this provocation. But, from what i'have seen, seems normal i can be insulted without any conseguence. May be i'm wrong, may be not, i have documented my opinion and what happened in justdogfight server it's not pertinent in this discussion and i never talked about justdogfight. Consider also that F14 breaks its wings past 10 Gs in DCS and that in real life a real pilot told that for his mistake he pulled 12.5g with his F14 without any damage. See you
                            Last edited by maxsin72; 09-30-2020, 09:00 AM.

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                              Originally posted by maxsin72 View Post
                              I think nowadays it's how you write. However, keep in mind that we are talking about events from 45 years ago and perhaps things were different then from today. There are several testimonies of old F14 pilots who speak of an out-of-the-way use on the internet and, perhaps, others that have not ended up on the internet have. So maybe, at the time, it wasn't so uncommon for F14 pilots to do forbidden things. After all, Grumman seems to have over-engineered the F14 making it much more robust than the minimum specifications required
                              And I think that is why the F-14 was increased, for this competition, because tactics existed back from when it was a 7.5 jet, and it might have become common to over-G it just because of the change to 6.5.

                              Folks that flew that thing forever at 7.5 probably would have balked at the idea of going to 6.5, and so... it became a thing.

                              Logically, we can look at this and say, the F-14 drivers seem to behave differently, what's different? Well, that is one concrete difference. And maybe it is sufficient to explain the anomaly.

                              Comment


                                It's disappointing to have witnessed the personal attacks on maxsin who has only in this thread attempted to add to the discussion with some concrete testimonial evidence. I'd implore you all to refrain from that behavior in this community. Please differentiate between attacking an idea and attacking a person.

                                That being said, everybody needs to remember that DCS is a SIM. They have not modeled everything precisely to real life and cannot do so due to a number of factors including lack of G-feel.

                                There are also other major modeling issues such as the F-18 able to pull 8.1-8.5G __WITH NO PADDLE__ using a constant stick position (not yanking stick back). I've done numerous hours of testing on this in DCS and my prediction is that there will be no competitive F-18's in the final rounds of the tournament. They would have either over G'd and DQ'd out or been shot down and knocked out due to lack of turn performance trying to follow a 7.5G theoretical limit.

                                Maybe that's what's supposed to happen and F-18 is just a dog vs the other fighters, but it's definitely a severe disadvantage for F-18 pilots. I'm not arguing that F-18 pilots should be able to use paddle, but even the current NATOPS mentions 8.0G as normal operation and NOT considered an over G meaning the limit should be 8.5G for this tournament with the 0.5G buffer. It'd be better to just fly a Mirage and not even think about G-limits.

                                As it stands, the way the F-18 is modeled in DCS, it tends to spike G's at a constant stick position when slowing down below 400 Knots. The only way that I've found to reliably prevent this is to reduce the max stick throw in the DCS Axis tuning, but doing so also limits your 1-circle turn performance.

                                I understand the desire for G-limit rule, but following NATOPS G limits assumes that DCS is modeled perfectly to real life and unfortunately DCS just doesn't have all the numbers spot on and the fly by wire system respecting the 7.5G limit yet in the Hornet.

                                Is realism of the numbers more important or realism of tactics and feel? Is it more important that we follow a specific G-limit to the number, or that we fly the planes as they would in real life? Is the G indicator a normal thing to include in your instrument scan in the F-18 or F-14 during BFM? or just in a T-38 where the limit is much lower and you need to keep an eye on that? How fast are we expected to scan in order to even catch a G-spike? I can tell you that even while ONLY looking at the G-meter, I could not react to ease up in time to prevent the G-spike in a hard turn.

                                Anyway, my point is that real life experience of how these jets are supposed to behave is one thing and fully appreciate that input from guys like Mover and Gonky, but DCS isn't modeled perfectly and I'd rather go for realistic behavior of flying the jets than getting fixated on the numbers.

                                And hopefully one day DCS is modeled even better and we get to real life performance and characteristics, but that's just a sim'ers dream.

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                                  These people aren’t even competing lol
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                                    I came here just to check the topic and see comments regarding Glimit....


                                    Can't wait to do BFM with No more that 30° AOB limitation ^^

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                                      As much as I am enjoying the schooling going on by our resident real-life pilots, let's make sure we are not taking away from the OP and make sure the focus is on the awesome cause, thanks guys.

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                                          For inconvenient guys...the thing that military pilots do most in their careers is to follow orders. If it is stipulated that the g limits are not to be exceeded, they will not exceed ... and will not contest. If you don't know to obey orders, you are not a military pilot, not even a military man. At no time was it asked whether or not you agreed with the g limit. The only option given to you is whether or not to register for the tournament. Do you want realism? This is realism. End. On the other line. Paragraph. Turn the disc. Move on.
                                          Last edited by Nazgûl; 10-01-2020, 10:43 PM.
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