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    Originally posted by Mustang View Post
    I noticed today that some MiG-21 jockeys are able to fire head on shots with their IR missiles, I thought rear aspect heaters were only allowed?
    You are able to shoot when you have tone.

    Even R-3S was able t ogive you tone sometimes head on before last patch.

    Having tone + ability to launch DOES NOT EQUAL launched missile tracking.

    They shoot head on because they don't know their hardware. Launched head on R-60 or R-13M will just fly forward.

    With the same luck and logic you could have say that MiG-21 jockeys are able to launch their S-5 unguided rockets head on. yes they can LAUNCH them.
    AKA LazzySeal

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      Stumbled in this issue in the Sat mission on Caucasus, then reproduced it on my old solo mission. If mission was created in previous Open Beta, some NDB's can appear as not working (for me it was Senaki-Kolhi's NDB's).
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        Originally posted by Hiromachi View Post
        Your assessment of R60 (not R60M) being equivalent to AIM9P5 is based on what if I may inquire ?

        I'm also not sure if your short session comprising of one flight where you complained about absence of air to air missiles on Viggen is indicative of anything regarding missile performance. However the idea that situation before R60 was better is premature to say the least and can be easily disputed as RED was down to R3S (aim9b equivalent or copy) and R13M (aim9d equivalent) while Blue was free to use Rb24j / aim9p which are much later sidewinder variants than 1967 - 1968 Aim9D.

        Also, 21 can only fire missiles in boresight since its weapon system does not provide any option to uncage seeker ( not to mention slaving seeker to radar as in f14 which hopefully in A variant will join server).
        The absence of the Rb24j was a separate issue and one Alpenwolf acknowledged so not sure why you would bring that up other than a poor attempt at attacking the character rather than the argument alongside bringing up legacy issues now resolved.

        My assessment is based on flying both planes on the server and also taking a look at the backend data files and having a few offline flights to test frontal aspect capabilities under repeatable conditions, for the R60, aim9p and aim9p5. So it is not just based on one small session. I am not suggesting to take away the R60, I am not suggesting the situation for red before R60 was better so please don't try to imply this is what I am suggesting.

        Originally posted by _Firefly View Post
        Couple of points for @Sideburns:

        Although the R-60 is capable of locking on in a head-on engagement, getting a hit this way is highly unlikely, if not impossible. Yesterday I launched an R-60 at an F-5 in precisely this fashion. He was in burner and flew straight and level, and yet the missile, well, missed completely and went for his wake instead (this may have been because the fuze took too long to arm, but I'm not sure). I need more attempts to verify this, but from what I've seen so far the Aphid does have very limited all-aspect capability, though in practice it's for rear-aspect engagements only.

        While the MiG-21 can carry up to 6 IR missiles (and not 8, thankfully that's a thing of the past as that's highly unrealistic), that's hardly the optimal loadout for dogfighting. With the additional drag from two APU-60-2 launchers the Fishbed loses plenty of performance. On the other hand, with 4 R-60s mounted (one on each pylon) the MiG feels somewhat more agile than with a full complement of R-3s or R-13s, which may be down to the lower weight and better aerodynamics of the Aphid. These days I rarely see people taking off with a full load of 6 missiles. I like to fly with only 2, VPAF style, to give me the best possible turn performance post-merge.

        I've had at least a dozen instances where an enemy plane required more than 2 Aphids to destroy. This is particularly true of the A-10 (no surprises there) words in others mouths.and, oddly enough, the Viggen (the latter seems capable of powered flight despite having its wings blown off and its engine on fire).

        I'd be happy to go up against AIM-9P5s for testing purposes on CW. Now that the R-60 is back it's only right that we should give the F-5s a chance to adjust to the refreshed Fishbed.
        I am aware of the performance restraints of the MiG21 when carrying 8 hence how my comments were made. I agree we should see how the server settles into the new loadouts, but I am suggesting letting the F5s have the Aim9p5 would make things fairer again.

        Originally posted by rossmum View Post
        Lots of words
        I don't disagree blue could do with more co-ordination these days, as red has sometimes also needed in the past. The quality of players on both sides comes and goes but it is good to see the server getting more popular.

        The R60 does have a limited frontal capability, so please don't deny this or make out like I'm the idiot here, nor did I say MiG21 should carry the full loadout. I know this is foolish and as commented the MiG21 can realistically carry twice the a2a missile loadout of the F5. As it stands red has two frontal aspect capable missiles in the R3R and R60, granted they are very contextual and limited but they are still a capability that is available to the MiG21. The uncage feature is a valid point but in practice the Aim9p manoeuvring capability is lacklustre and shots with aspect are far from guaranteed with the aim9p, as it should be so don't make out like uncage is a magic silver bullet.

        This also isn't "all I want for Christmas" requesting Aim9l back on the Harrier or similar so try not to be so dramatic with the slippery slope fallacies. You may also recall the recent Rb24j issues were chased down, figured it out and communicated with ED and HB to get this resolved by the blue team using the broken Rb24j. It's a suggestion to make the server fairer by reinstating the F5s ability to carry two Aim9p5, not the end of the world.
        Last edited 09-28-2020, 03:02 PM. Reason: Fixing the inline quote tag for Firefly
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          The R-60 does not have a frontal aspect capability unless there is now a bug, because it should have been patched out nearly a week ago now. This was referenced (though not explicitly as a loss of all-aspect capability IIRC) in patch notes and confirmed by devs, one of whom you quoted in your post. If there is a bug, and the R-60 is tracking targets from frontal aspects, then please go ahead and demonstrate it - like we found performance graphs for the 24J. Replays, Tacviews, whatever - show us.

          The R-60M is limited all-aspect, as it always has been, and crucially has not been available in any mission in this server for something like six months, nor is it now. The R-60 and R-60M are two separate missiles, they do not have the same engagement capability.

          AIM-9P agility is fine. Learn to respect your weapon's launch envelope and you will almost never miss with it. The uncage function even allows you to effectively destroy one target while beginning a turn to engage a second - something the MiGs cannot even dream of doing, and something I capitalised on hugely last night in the F-5. It also has about twice the reach of an R-60, perhaps a little more depending on aspect and whether the target makes much effort to evade or not.

          There is no argument to be had here, you're conflating two separate variants of a missile as being the same thing while also downplaying a critical close combat feature (don't even start me on the F-5's radar at low altitude - you know, the radar most people call 'useless' and don't turn on). Either you aren't aware of the full capabilities of the aircraft in question and their weapons, or you do know and you're trying to move the goalposts to get what you want, which is an all-aspect missile for the F-5 while red have only the R-3R, which can't be effectively used at low altitude. The decision's already been made, it's all academic at this point.

          I don't think there are any "dramatic slippery slope fallacies" being made when people repeatedly argue in bad faith, but maybe that's just me. In the meantime, I certainly had a whale of a time swatting MiGs left, right, and centre last night with the oh-so-terrible 9P, and was only shot down by SAMs - not once by any of said MiGs, from any aspect. 8 of my 9 AIM-9 shots hit
          Last edited 09-28-2020, 04:41 PM.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Sideburns View Post

            The R60 does have a limited frontal capability, so please don't deny this or make out like I'm the idiot here,
            https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W3V...ew?usp=sharing
            AKA LazzySeal

            Comment


              @Sideburns and here is AIM-9P5 for you.

              https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Cm-...ew?usp=sharing

              Not implying you are idiot, but maybe you can get off your high horse and stop thinking others here are not worthy?

              You just have outdated data and did not check latest state. I have no other explanation.

              But if after these two videos you will tell me R-60 vs AIM-9P5 will make it "fairer" I'll have some issues comprehending that.
              AKA LazzySeal

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                Originally posted by Sideburns View Post
                snip

                Do some actual testing with current R-60 and p5, you will see that MiG-21 will die 100% of the time, one every head on merge. Period. R-60 has absolutely no front aspect capability whatsoever, the only way you can possibly get a front aspect hit is if you launch it into the path of the incoming aircraft so it hits it without guidance (because fuse still works). Same can be done with P5. Or with hydras and S-5s for that matter. Stop making idiots of us and trying to shape reality into something it isn't. If you get p5 we get R-60Ms, otherwise red fighters will just die instantly on initial contact with no hope of retaliation until all p5s are spent.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Mustang View Post
                  I noticed today that some MiG-21 jockeys are able to fire head on shots with their IR missiles, I thought rear aspect heaters were only allowed?

                  Yesterday I've seen someone smuggled two R-60Ms to main airbase, presumably an Su-25T diverted there after sortie, maybe that's what happened. Otherwise yes, they can fire, it's just that the missile will be wasted because it has literally no chance of hitting at all, it's too close for it to start tracking. Having tone doesn't mean you're in weapons envelope, but it does mean you have LA in the 21, it doesn't have minimum distance protection even if you're ranging with radar, so you can fire below valid distance. I noticed lot of less experienced 21 pilots do that, they have tone -they immediately squeeze the button without even thinking about range, doesn't matter if target is head on, high angular rate, if it's a Viggen 10km cold on stage 3, they don't care, they just fire salvos into space and wonder why they can't hit anything.

                  Comment


                    A NEW MISSION HAS ARRIVED!!!

                    Operation: Street Fight


                    * All aircraft and all weapons are limited in numbers!
                    * The mission will go online tonight around 18-19 zulu.
                    * The mission lasts for 5 hours (unless the objective is completed)
                    * READ the briefing and all notes to understand the limitations on all aircraft.




















                    Situation:

                    RED Airbases: Al-Dumayr, Mezzeh, Qabr as Sitt, Damascus, Marj Ruhayyil
                    BLUE Airbases: Ramat David, Haifa, Megiddo, Eyn Shemer, Kiryat Shmona

                    Red BTR-80's and Blue M-113's are fighting in the streets of 6 towns on Red soil not too far from the borderlines. The coalition holding all 6 towns for at least 10 minutes, wins the day.
                    At mission's start Red holds the following towns:
                    Kafr Shams, As Sanamayn, Ankhul
                    At mission's start Red holds the following towns:
                    Aqrabac, Al Harah, Jasim
                    Every 5 minutes a message provides pilots with an update on the current situation with the towns.

                    REMEMBER! All aircraft and weapons are limited in numbers!

                    Su-25's and A-10's are excluded in this mission.



                    Red Objective:

                    Destroy any hostile ground units at any of the 6 towns and make sure we have friendly ground units moving in to capture and hold all 6.
                    All towns are marked on the F10 map.
                    Friendly and enemy artillery installations are marked on the F10 map.
                    Use SRS to coordinate your attacks!
                    IFF before you fire!

                    Ka-50's Waypoints:
                    WP-1 - Kafr Shams Town (friendly at mission's start)
                    WP-2 - As Sanamayn Town (friendly at mission's start)
                    WP-3 - Ankhul Town (friendly at mission's start)
                    WP-4 - Aqrabac Town (hostile at mission's start)
                    WP-5 - Al Harah Town (hostile at mission's start)
                    WP-6 - Jasim Town (hostile at mission's start)

                    EWR: 124 MHz, channel 0 for MiG-21's and L-39's. Channel 2 for MiG-19's.
                    EWR-15: 4.95 MHz (tuned in by default)



                    ************************************************************************************


                    Blue Objective:

                    Destroy any hostile ground units at any of the 6 towns and make sure we have friendly ground units moving in to capture and hold all 6.
                    All towns are marked on the F10 map.
                    Friendly and enemy artillery installations are marked on the F10 map.
                    Use SRS to coordinate your attacks!
                    IFF before you fire!

                    EWR: 251 MHz
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                    Cold War 1947 - 1991
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                      Mission Phone Booth doesnt have freq of AWACS for MiG 15s in briefing.
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                        I like the sounds of this new mission! Just came off a wild run on Phone Booth, probably the best session I've had since the start of the year. Fantastic teamwork and an absolutely wild defence of Beslan.

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                          Originally posted by The_Tau View Post
                          Mission Phone Booth doesnt have freq of AWACS for MiG 15s in briefing.
                          Fixed.
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                          Cold War 1947 - 1991
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                            @Alpenwolf, what's your take on introducing supply runs into your missions? The limited numbers of aircraft available opens up the possibility of a victory through attrition. I can imagine the battle going down to the wire, with both sides frantically trying to bring in as much hardware to the front line as possible. This could be a fun way of employing L-39s, C-101s and helicopters in non-combat tasks. Interdicting those supply runs could become a secondary objective in itself.

                            I know, in all likelihood implementing this would be far more complex than I'm portraying it here, but IMHO this could add an interesting new dimension to your missions.
                            DCS module wishlist: F-104S ASA-M Starfighter / F-111F Aardvark / F-4E Phantom II / J 35F2 Draken / J-7A / Kfir C.2 / MiG-17F / Mirage F1 / Su-17M4 / Su-24M / Yak-9U

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                              Having to ferry missiles would be interesting, if possible - maybe only R-3S/GAR-8/Rb 24 available at airfields by default, with supply runs from the rear area (say a factory or depot) bringing out small batches of the more advanced weapons and heavier A/G ordnance. Using actual slinging for this would make it challenging but rewarding.

                              Really I'd love to see road and rail logistics to resupply airfields, but the former is bugged (invisible, un-interdictable convoys to repair/resupply) and the latter doesn't really seem possible at the moment (DCS treats trains as traffic clutter AFAIK, they don't actually do anything and spawn in at random).

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                                If you only knew how often I've asked for those things
                                Limiting everything is something I want and can easily be done in the mission editor. Having the ability to resupply (through trains, trucks, helicopters, etc.) is the counter for that and something I'd love to have but still unfortunately not possible.
                                Here's my latest thread.


                                NOTE:
                                Operation Open Range is currently online. The new mission, operation Street Fight will kick off right after around 1830 zulu.
                                Hope to see you there.
                                Share your feedback, please. I need that
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                                Cold War 1947 - 1991
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                                  That new mission is pretty damn cool Alpen!
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                                    Originally posted by Hiromachi View Post
                                    That new mission is pretty damn cool Alpen!
                                    I might start limiting aircraft in all missions, I guess. Starting with the Syrian ones. Lot of work...
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                                    Cold War 1947 - 1991
                                    Helicopters Tournaments
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                                      In the new mission Street fight, where all aircraft are limited in numbers, most players were actually on comms and were very sensible with how they fly. If it's too dangerous to handle, they'd just back off. This is why I'm all in for realism (not saying that everything in my missions is realistic - way to go still and I know that), but that gives players the incentive to approach a mission with a different mindset, hence operation Tiberias (the one featuring Hornets, Eagles, etc.). It actually starts to matter. Otherwise, why bother to RTB, right? Not that players shouldn't always RTB instead of just leaving the server while midair, I'm always against the latter and that could result in banning if done too often as you already know.
                                      I hope more of you will appreciate these "harsh" limitations that I'm always adding to the server in time.

                                      S!


                                      NOTE:
                                      Red won tonight and didn't lose not one ground unit!!! Not one!!!
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                                      Cold War 1947 - 1991
                                      Helicopters Tournaments
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                                      You can help me with keeping up the server via PayPal donations: hokumyounis@yahoo.com

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                                        From blue side:
                                        Street Fight is pretty cool, loved the close spawns and the limited amount of aircraft was a really neat addition to add intense rtb moments.
                                        I tried to fly the Gazelle L and it's utter shit compared to Ka50, distance to engage is really close and you're pretty much dead before even getting in range. Not sure how to balance that though.

                                        The only viable way we found was using JTAC with GBU's on F5s but I need to learn how to do this properly ahah. We manually changed the JTAC laser code to be usable by F5's but it still showed the OG one (1113 I believe) when using F10 menu => Others => JTAC Status. Not sure if it was working or not, myself and another guy dropped GBUs on a lased Shilka with no success but that might be a pilot related issue in this case.

                                        I think this mission could end very quickly when people get to know it, the vehicle war is way more efficient than anything else it seems but only time will tell

                                        I feel that A2G stuff could only have been done succesfully by Viggens but I'm under the impression it's mostly used in A2A scenarios. (unpopular opinion: remove A2A missiles on Viggen )
                                        Last edited 09-30-2020, 12:16 AM.

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                                          Originally posted by ConkersBFD View Post
                                          Not sure how to balance that though.
                                          Gotta wait for AH-64. Dont think right now any of that can be balanced.
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