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[INVESTIGATING]DCS Causing SteamVR Fail | Description, evidence and how to replicate

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    #41
    Originally posted by Alec Delorean View Post
    @CobaltUK

    I'm only pointing at VRAM usage, DCS seems to need to allocate more ressources since the introduction of the syria map and the latest patches seem to add even more VRAM usage on top of it. I also had the same problem before with my old 2080ti. To test this on your end you can simply lower every setting that needs plenty of VRAM (render resolution with PD setting, visibility range, low textures, lower or 100% SS settings). If the problem still persists than the reason is something else.
    A friend of mine just ran into the same problem yesterday on a 1070, we just tested the unlock all liveries mod on our syria server with all modules available and his VRAM just filled up too much, FPS were going down, F10 map troubles. He had to restart the game without the mod to fix it.
    To be fair, I kind of get where @CobaltUK was coming from. I know you had the best intentions but as you can kind of see from even this thread, it can be a challenge to get ED to start taking something seriously. I don't blame them either, as they have a pretty full plate with all the other issues.

    It takes a good deal of work to push past the point of it just being assuming it's something the end-user is causing themselves through either mods or some other bastardization of what you'd call reasonable use of the software. That is the main reason why, despite you trying to offer "solutions," for me anyway, was missing the mark. It wasn't about solving my problem, it was about solving the problem for me and everyone else. That needs to happen on the ED side, not my personal configuration.

    Crashing a VR HMD in such a severe manner some people are (erroneously) RMA'ing their devices isn't even close to being accepting of, or tweaking settings to accomadate poor (read: unoptimized) hardware utilization.

    Believe it or not, this isn't the first time I've had to report in great detail a VR issue that others impacted were either unable or failed to articulate in a way that wasn't dismissed. One of the toughest parts of crossing that hump is getting buy-in from ED that it isn't just a "you problem." I'll admit there was a lot less pushback the last time, but it was also easier to reproduce.

    I just got home and was actually going to make a note about asking BIGNEWY for a status update on this and suggest maybe not pushing a stable update with a known bug of this degree - but that ship kind of sailed

    Comment


      #42
      May not be a VR only issue.

      https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=288445

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by Taz1004 View Post
        While I'm certainly a fan of letting no good crisis go to waste it does sound a bit different. For VR. That thread describes a specific consequence of zooming into a bunch of units in F10. For this thread, it's not zooming in, merely opening F10 will prompt it. DCS doesn't actually crash per say, just your HMD/overlay.

        Comment


          #44
          @Stal2k

          Five pages later and you still misunderstanding what i'm trying to say. I'm not backing up ED and i'm definitely not trying to say it's your fault. You know how they work, we are the last line of beta testers.
          How about that, please try my suggested steps which may lead to a more precise bug report. Something like "Increased VRAM usage leads to Steam VR fail since the latest patches". Be very conservative with the first step, go pretty low on settings. Watch VRAM usage. Then go higher and try to find the sweetspot. After that, post the settings that worked before and where you are now. I can't do this anymore by myself. I can be totally wrong, it's just my theory from what i've seen on my end. It will help a lot of people to understand whats going on.
          Last edited 10-10-2020, 08:25 AM.
          i9 10920X @4.8GHz, 3090 OC, 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940)

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by Stal2k View Post
            To be fair, I kind of get where @CobaltUK was coming from. I know you had the best intentions but as you can kind of see from even this thread, it can be a challenge to get ED to start taking something seriously. I don't blame them either, as they have a pretty full plate with all the other issues.

            It takes a good deal of work to push past the point of it just being assuming it's something the end-user is causing themselves through either mods or some other bastardization of what you'd call reasonable use of the software. That is the main reason why, despite you trying to offer "solutions," for me anyway, was missing the mark. It wasn't about solving my problem, it was about solving the problem for me and everyone else. That needs to happen on the ED side, not my personal configuration.

            Crashing a VR HMD in such a severe manner some people are (erroneously) RMA'ing their devices isn't even close to being accepting of, or tweaking settings to accomadate poor (read: unoptimized) hardware utilization.

            Believe it or not, this isn't the first time I've had to report in great detail a VR issue that others impacted were either unable or failed to articulate in a way that wasn't dismissed. One of the toughest parts of crossing that hump is getting buy-in from ED that it isn't just a "you problem." I'll admit there was a lot less pushback the last time, but it was also easier to reproduce.

            I just got home and was actually going to make a note about asking BIGNEWY for a status update on this and suggest maybe not pushing a stable update with a known bug of this degree - but that ship kind of sailed

            Hi

            you seem to think we are not taking it seriously, we are, but if we can not reproduce how can we fix it?

            I will ask the team to take another look, but at this time not being able to reproduce the issue is the biggest problem.

            Thanks


            Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by BIGNEWY View Post
              Hi

              you seem to think we are not taking it seriously, we are, but if we can not reproduce how can we fix it?

              I will ask the team to take another look, but at this time not being able to reproduce the issue is the biggest problem.

              Thanks
              I don't think that currently, I said initially. However, you only said YOU could not reproduce it, and at that point said you were bringing in a tester. There was no follow up since then, so I'm unclear on your progress in reproducing the issue. If I'm to understand based on this response you and the tester you've enlisted were unable to reproduce it then the next step would be to communicate that in this thread. The last note from you on this was you were getting a tester to help, then nothing so how would we know you haven't been able to reproduce?

              As you've seen, roughly ~24 people or so between here and the hoggit thread are reporting it, so if I were you I'd ask for one of them to help in a more direct manner - much like what was done in the past with regards to the "50% vr performance" troubleshooting. That to me would say you were taking it seriously. Also, not pushing a stable update with an issue like this present would tell me you were taking it seriously.

              I'm not trying to be overly harsh here, but since you asked how to fix and state reproduction being the biggest issue; then the next steps would be to outline an action plan on how you either 1) plan to scale out testing/hardware configuration of the testers TO REPRODUCE or 2) steps or even intent to look into a possible causes i.e. relation to the recent overhaul of how the F10 menu/memory is handled from about two months ago and most importantly 3) an idea of when you or someone would give a response on the results of those actions.
              • 9/13 I reached out to you privately about this and supplied a mission file to help encourage this crash as a follow up from someone elses reddit thread on the problem, you said you'd take a look.
              • 9/30 I checked back in about this via discord on 9/30 asking if you were tracking this internally yet, and you responded "if you have the steps to make it crash please post, I use stream vr everyday and not seen an issue myself"
              • 10/2 I posted this thread and give you a nudge about it, you again responded that YOU personally couldn't reproduce this and suggested the typical repair/unmod steps.
              • Several others piled into the this thread, and the one I made on hoggit saying they were having the same issue, you said you were getting a tester to look at it and that was it until now


              So why would I think that you all aren't taking this seriously? Your initial response(s) to me from 9/13 up through page one of this thread indicates to me that despite spurious reports about this issue from other people you were still treating it like an individual user problem which is understandable.

              After what I would consider an undeniable amount of folks began substantiating the issue beyond you saying you would have someone else look at it, it's been radio silence. For me personally, I've been doing this w/ you since mid September. I understand you must have a lot of things reported, and you can't be expected to follow up with everything but after being told you'd look into it without any follow up 3x and doing what you asked me to do it's frustrating to hear basically the same thing you told me on the 9/13 in terms of some variant of "someone will look into this." without any follow up - even if it's bad news it just seems like the solution is currently to hope it just goes away/fixes itself.

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by BIGNEWY View Post
                I will have another tester check, but at this time I am unable to reproduce on my system.

                thanks
                To be frank, your system is way too overpowered to make this happen.
                EDIT: Didn't see the specs of the OP in the first place. Seems not to be directly hardware related, but my take on this is it happens way easier on lesser hardware.

                I get these VR crashes (HMD screen freezing up, going black, DCS instaclose, no crash log, no crash message whatsoever, sometimes the Oculusware crashing up at the same time) a lot and I always thought it was just the other random DCS crash that we always had occasionally. I even set up a pagefile to make sure my rig doesn't run out of mem, but it still happens. And it does happen a lot on my stone age rig. And since I always thought it was my limited hardware, I never cared to investigate or report, just tried not to load up too much within a session to some success. Going through F2/6/7/etc and F10, but especially chaning the airframe and even more so exiting the session and loading up another map without exiting DCS is a warranty for this to happen eventually. I always had that since 2.0 Alpha, but it literally went away completely when upping to 32GB, only to come back a lot harder than in ever was when going into the CV1.
                Last edited 10-11-2020, 04:09 AM.

                Comment


                  #48
                  Same issue here.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Got the same issues, especially in scenes with heavy loads. I can start and fly mp, when i switch to external views or to F10 map, HMD goes black, then Steam VR crashes, and dcs still runs with the mirror window in a kind of low fps style.

                    I tried Steam VR repair, deinstallation, re-installation could not fix the issue.
                    Also enable\disabling VR shader mod, DCS repair etc.


                    I also updated my nvidia graphic drivers twice. Latest WHQL Builds. Still the problem occures very often in DCS. Before i had never problems like now. Is there any solution. I also googled this issue, and it seems to be a steam VR issue.

                    The only one work around is to avoid, to switch views on heavy load scenes. But still this error / bug annoys and can be frustrating, with steam vr crashes, after restarting the HDM (Steam VR) DCS also quits.


                    And this suddenly occured with the release or update since the syria map release. Could also be a steam VR update...Before i never had these issues.
                    DCS had been running "well" in VR. Still ED pls put mor effort in VR users to optimize performance etc.



                    My PC specs: Intel i7 7700K, 32 GB DDR4, Zotac RTX 2080 OC
                    Valve Index VR, Thrustmaster HOTAS (Joystick & Throttle), 2x Cougar MFDs, Wheelstand Pro + Monstertech Table Mount Combination
                    Last edited 10-12-2020, 10:07 PM.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Originally posted by GrapeFruiT View Post
                      I also updated my nvidia graphic drivers twice. Latest WHQL Builds. Still the problem occures very often in DCS. Before i had never problems like now. Is there any solution. I also googled this issue, and it seems to be a steam VR issue.

                      Initially, I thought the same thing, but it happens with the Oculus software as well (tested myself) and according to others reports WMR. Do you have anything you could share on the issue being central to SteamVR, i.e. something from the SteamVR bug forum?

                      In terms of getting this fixed, I guess all we can do is continue to pile on here until it becomes even more overwhelming. You can see from a few posts up the last word is they can't reproduce, my hope is BN answers some of the questions I posed in regards to helping them reproduce this issue or what else we could possibly do to help them narrow it down.

                      So far the big common factors are
                      • Issue is common during heavy memory I/O, i.e. F10 map or external views/module switching
                      • This popped up around the same time Syria launched, though not just a Syria issue
                      • Folks with more than 11gb VRAM seem unimpacted
                      • Happens to Steam/WMR/Rift HMDs


                      I personally intend to continue to follow up on this until I'm either told they won't fix it and we all need 3090s now for MP VR or they share some meaningful progress on getting this resolved.

                      Comment


                        #51
                        @Stal2k

                        For science, did you also tried to test Steam VR against the latest Steam VR beta? There maybe differences. (I'm on Steam VR beta since 2016)
                        i9 10920X @4.8GHz, 3090 OC, 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940)

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Originally posted by Alec Delorean View Post
                          @Stal2k

                          For science, did you also tried to test Steam VR against the latest Steam VR beta? There maybe differences. (I'm on Steam VR beta since 2016)
                          Yep I went back and forth between release and beta just to test. The crash still happens with just Oculus software, not Oculus via SteamVR which is a strong indicator it ain't SteamVR.

                          I don't have a WMR headset so I can only go off what others have said in so much that it also bricks the WMR software. I will say that anecdotally it's a bit more difficult to do this intentionally with just the Oculus software running.

                          Comment


                            #53
                            @Stal2k

                            Okay, found out how to show real VRAM usage per process in Afterburner. As you can see VRAM usage is way too high for 11GB cards at very high VR settings (ingame and SteamVR SS). Switching to F10 map costs more than 1 GB extra.

                            If you want to examine what is happening on your end: https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comm...y_per_process/
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited 10-13-2020, 09:45 PM.
                            i9 10920X @4.8GHz, 3090 OC, 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940)

                            Comment


                              #54
                              That is consistent with what I am getting, main crashes for me are role selection menu and F10 map view. SUPER frustrating!

                              i7 8700, 2080 Super, 32G RAM, M2 SSD, HP Reverb.
                              The Flying Kiwis - Since ages ago...
                              Find us at https://www.simcentral.co.nz

                              Comment


                                #55
                                Originally posted by Alec Delorean View Post
                                @Stal2k

                                Okay, found out how to show real VRAM usage per process in Afterburner. As you can see VRAM usage is way too high for 11GB cards at very high VR settings (ingame and SteamVR SS). Switching to F10 map costs more than 1 GB extra.

                                If you want to examine what is happening on your end: https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comm...y_per_process/
                                Thanks Alec, that goes in line (I think) with my initial speculation this has to do with rapid memory I/O or I guess based on your testing overstuffing.

                                Bignewy, do you have any update on this in terms of the testers? Is this still considered closed because you can't replicate or is information like Alec is supplying helpful and the effort is ongoing?

                                My assumption is that even as this thread continues to grow the official status on this is "Unable to replicate," is that accurate?

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Yep, the needed data swapping for shared video memory on disk and RAM is more of an emergency state than normal operation. Pretty bad for performance.
                                  i9 10920X @4.8GHz, 3090 OC, 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940)

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    We are investigating, if I have anything to share I will post.

                                    thanks


                                    Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by Stal2k View Post
                                      Yep I went back and forth between release and beta just to test. The crash still happens with just Oculus software, not Oculus via SteamVR which is a strong indicator it ain't SteamVR.

                                      I don't have a WMR headset so I can only go off what others have said in so much that it also bricks the WMR software. I will say that anecdotally it's a bit more difficult to do this intentionally with just the Oculus software running.


                                      I am a WMR user and I can also confirm that crashes also happen there.

                                      Thank you very much in advance for your time, investigation and efforts.
                                      .- PER ASPERA AD ASTRA -.

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Not sure if it helps but i was asked for input. I have Steam VR with an HP Reverb, i5 8600K, 32GB RAM, 2080Super and I run DCS on NVMe which is different to my OS (Samsung SSD, Samsung EVO plus 500GB)
                                        I see a period of stuttering when first moving to F10. There is definitely somehting to optimise there. It seems initially worse than subsequently, like new texture load.
                                        I have 3-5 occasions (didnt count), in the last three months where the HMD crashed and went black but the game continued running. These werent connected with anything specific that I recall. I never had anything like that on Occulus, this is a crash of the HMD software, but the cause I couldn't say, If I were to make a wild guess I'd say it was high system usage causing something to break on the VR side.

                                        I am saying, whilst I see very little crashes, these are not at all common, and i regularly prepare for multiplayer by restarting my PC and shutting down extraneous applications.

                                        I'd be happy to work with ther OP in a like-for-like example with steps to reproduce with the aim of getting reprodcucible steps (OP video does not reproduce for me) but I cannot engage in performance or tuning related guesses with optimisations and tweaks as a solution. The game is already being iterated on monthly, if it's not clear cut where the issue is there is no point everyone keeping on saying "+1" and adding no data, people need to be VERY specific, provide exact steps and configurations or this is just doing circles.
                                        Thanks.
                                        ___________________________________________________________________________
                                        SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING * PLAYLIST

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          I've just tried to force this to happen and I got a 20 minute long video with perfect F10 map scrolling, FPS 55-60 in cockpit as reported by game and FPSVR, GPU remaining in the orange times at 15-16ms frametime, CPU in the green and no issues. I think I had two micro stutters after loading the Jeff but I went through f18, 16, 14, Jeff, 21 and F10 on each and it's just not happening. There was a brief period where my frames went to 22 for some reason until I swapped aircraft but when I came back to the same aircraft after another, it returned to 55-60FPS. It might have been the recording process.

                                          So best to explain the steps to reproduce exactly and I'll return my findings. This include configuration in detail.
                                          ___________________________________________________________________________
                                          SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING * PLAYLIST

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