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Honey, I developed FFB joystick (DIY)

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    #21
    Originally posted by RustBelt View Post
    At 8 NM of force you'll need to be careful with the thrustmaster grips. The Zamac tailpiece tends to fail from high force loading. There's a fulcrum point where it comes out of the grip body. May want to set a force limit for standard Grips.
    There are 3d printed plastic (and maybe 3d printed metal as well?) replacements for this part sold on Shapeways. That should solve the issue.

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      #22
      @propeler

      For rough and quick prototyping, you can take a Virpil WarBRD base, precalibrate a grip with it and snatch the tiny PCB out of it afterwards. You'll end up with two USB devices in one, but instantly have a fully working highend grip. (That's what i did)
      i9 10920X @4.8GHz, 3090 OC, 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940)

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        #23
        Please keep us informed. I'm thinking since a couple of months to upgrade my stick on the msffb2, but i have to get a second one before i make an attempt in case i break something. I cannot go back to a dead stick. If you can manage to keep the costs below 1k i will start saving for one.
        Specs:WIN10, I7-4790K, ASUS RANGER VII, 16GB G.Skill DDR3, GEFORCE 1080, NVME SSD, SSD, TM T-16000 FCS FLIGHT PACK, MS FFB2, JETSEAT TURBOJET, DELAN CLIP FUSION

        Modules:A10C, AJS-37, AV8B, BF109K4, CA, F/A18C, F14, F5EII, F86F, FC3, FW190A8, FW190D9, KA50, L39, M2000C, MI8TV2, MIG15BIS, MIG19P, MIG21BIS, P51D, SA342, SPITFIRE, UH1H, NORMANDY, PERSIAN GULF, CHANNEL, SYRIA

        Thrustmaster TWCS Afterburner Detent
        https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=223776

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          #24
          Update for the gimbal set. Inspired by MS FFB one. Improved stiffness. All moving joins are on massive ball bearings. Hope it will be final iteration for gimbal.
          Attached Files

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            #25
            Originally posted by propeler View Post
            Do you think it is too much for the motors? Those motors are rated for 55A max. 20A for them is a super mild condition. Taking into account that such current will be at max deflection only.



            oH.. It is another story. Building something is my hobby, so I spend time for it not on regular basis. When I started it I was total zero in electronics. Now I know a lot about power electronics, microcontrolers, USB protocol, PID algorythms, FOC motor controll, PCB prototyping and so on. Reading about all of that things took most of the invested time. But those things are simply interesting for me
            This is friggin awesome Propeller!!. A salute to you sir.

            I absolutely love the fact that you just jumped in there and learned what was required to accomplish each step along the way. The internet is an amazing tool for those with the interest and desire to learn. It's one thing to read about something or learn it, and something completely different and infinitely more difficult to do what you have done.

            I think you made some great well thought out design choices, and component selections, not to mention a nice clean prototype execution. My prototypes never look that nice.

            I have done a bit of work on FFB stick for the masses, but specific to DCS, using the export lua. I think your way, using standard FFB is probably better for most people.

            Great Choice on RC motors, I am guessing a high pole count out-runner? I initially went that route and only switched to using steppers in unipolar mode as BLDC motors with custom controllers to reduce cost of a production unit.

            Reference the motors 20 amps comment. Of course you are correct. As you know, amps mean very little without volts. It looks like your pushing 24 volts through those, so you max intermittent load is around 480 watts. I am guessing those motors are probably good for a 1000 watts. Some of the RC motor manufactures don't post the watts, but will post the max amps, like you stated yours were 50, and then they will post max number of cells. such as (6s)

            Example
            6s = 6 Lipo cells x 3.7volts each = approx 22 volts
            22 volts x 50 rated amps for the motor = 1100 rated watts

            Anyway, I know you already knew all of that, that's more for the other poster. I am looking forward to following this. You clearly have previously untapped aptitude and skills. I am really glad you chose this project as your first, and it was quite a big bite to take for your first. I honestly have way to much on my plate and realistically won't have time to bring mine to production.

            Thanks for sharing, and again, great friggin job!!!.

            Miles
            Now Shipping 1 thru 425 for current production version 1
            PointCTRL General Information Post https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...54&postcount=1
            PreOrder Wait List Submission https://pointctrl.com/elementor-8258/
            PointCTRL Support Discord https://discord.gg/jH5FktJ
            PintCTRL Website https://pointctrl.com/

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              #26
              Originally posted by propeler View Post
              Update for the gimbal set. Inspired by MS FFB one. Improved stiffness. All moving joins are on massive ball bearings. Hope it will be final iteration for gimbal.
              Looks fantastic!
              i9 10920X @4.8GHz, 3090 OC, 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940)

              Comment


                #27
                This is the element of DCS (and flight simming in general) that is hard to explain to people who aren't into it. It inspires this sort of thing. It draws in people with curiosity, and leads to spin-off hobbies. In my case it was a (vastly less sophisticated) homemade collective, but we all wind up doing all sorts of tweaking, tinkering and learning along the way.

                I gripe a lot about how I seem to spend a lot more time preparing to play DCS than actually playing, but the truth is that I like doing stuff like creating Stream Deck profiles or trying to get Helios to work almost as much as I like the flying. Both scratch a similarly itchy part of the brain, I suppose.

                Anyway propeler, you're inspiring, and I hope you've enjoyed the journey, no matter whether it leads to a production-level product. Bravo zulu!

                Comment


                  #28
                  Any idea when plans might be made available? Looks like an awesome project!

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Originally posted by propeler View Post
                    Update for the gimbal set. Inspired by MS FFB one. Improved stiffness. All moving joins are on massive ball bearings. Hope it will be final iteration for gimbal.
                    This is interesting, I've also thought about making a (3d printed) gimbal based on the MSFS one.
                    As a thought to those of use with our own 3D printers, I'm wondering is it would be better to have the inner bearing mounts integrated into the main trunion piece and instead print that part in 2 indexed halves that are held together by the larger bearings (or screwed together) and one end obviously pinned to the large pulley.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Looks very interesting. If you ever release a "for sale" type I would be very interested in purchasing one. Especially if it featured a decent grip, and a floor mounted base.
                      Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Neat project, watching with fascination. I'm really interested in the motors/drives and software that is used for this project. I have no interest in replicating MSFFII gimbals architecture (my least favorite gimbals arrangement) however gimbals are easy to make but motor selection/drives and particularly the software to interface it with DirectInput is not, especially if there's a tuning gui as well.

                        OP, how much torque to these motors put out? (peak/hold) and what is your pulley ratio? Details seem a bit vague and there is talk of 8nm in its final form but that's the same output of my Fanatec CSW2.5 wheel which has a 7a psu and double belt step up to achieve in a form factor the size of a watermelon for a single axis.

                        These motors looks a lot smaller than the Fanatec BLDC and only have a single mechanical increase that looks ~5:1. I've designed but not implemented FF setups up to 5Nm and those are getting pretty beefy even with 25:1 double pulley, but were based around brushed motors which are not as efficient as BLDC.

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Hats off! Great engineering! I truly admire people who are ready to learn completely new skills just to reach their goal.

                          How hard would it be to increase the torque for a long shaft stick (lets say 20Nm)? In addition to the obvious replacement of components like gimbal, gear, motor, is it straight forward?
                          sigpic

                          KG13 Control Grip Building

                          Control Stick and Rudder Design


                          i7 8700K, Asus Z370-E, 1080 Ti, 32Gb RAM, EVO960 500Gb, Oculus CV1

                          Comment


                            #33
                            How hard would it be to increase the torque for a long shaft stick (lets say 20Nm)? In addition to the obvious replacement of components like gimbal, gear, motor, is it straight forward?
                            Depends on targeted dimensions of the whole unit. Needs metal gimbal with different mechanical scheme for such high torque. But it is not impossible.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              OP, how much torque to these motors put out? (peak/hold) and what is your pulley ratio? Details seem a bit vague and there is talk of 8nm in its final form but that's the same output of my Fanatec CSW2.5 wheel which has a 7a psu and double belt step up to achieve in a form factor the size of a watermelon for a single axis.

                              These motors looks a lot smaller than the Fanatec BLDC and only have a single mechanical increase that looks ~5:1. I've designed but not implemented FF setups up to 5Nm and those are getting pretty beefy even with 25:1 double pulley, but were based around brushed motors which are not as efficient as BLDC.
                              Oh.. It is not only about how big motor look like from outside. Depends much how motor constructed. Number and type of magnets, number of poles, size of stator, winding wire, type and turn count, type ofmotor(inrunner\outrunner). It gives very different kV and Amp rating for motor -> so different possible torque.

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Especially if it featured a decent grip, and a floor mounted base.
                                Do not have plan for grip production. There are disent choice of available grips. TM, VKB. I plan to support TM natively and solution fo mounting VKB but with usage of all VKB electronics.

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  As a thought to those of use with our own 3D printers, I'm wondering is it would be better to have the inner bearing mounts integrated into the main trunion piece and instead print that part in 2 indexed halves that are held together by the larger bearings (or screwed together) and one end obviously pinned to the large pulley.
                                  If it give you enough stiffness why not. You can try

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Thanks for sharing, and again, great friggin job!!!.
                                    Thanks, very motivating

                                    Reference the motors 20 amps comment. Of course you are correct. As you know, amps mean very little without volts. It looks like your pushing 24 volts through those, so you max intermittent load is around 480 watts.
                                    Even less. 12v/20Amp -> 240W
                                    Last edited 10-16-2020, 03:49 PM.

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Hey, congrats on the project. It seems we're working on something similar in parallel
                                      My idea is to build a FFB stick from easily obtainable materials - mainly 3d printed parts and laser cut plywood box parts and standard bearings, pulleys, belts.
                                      It's also based on stm32 and I have good progress on the FFB firmware. All the USB PID supported effects are implemented.

                                      Here's my FFB stick mk1 Based on brushed motors. But due to magnetic cogging, I've decided to move to bldc motors with software anticogging compensation. Got VIRPIL stick fully working with analog brake axis also. Sadly currently stuck with this project for the time being due to home renovation eating my free time. But hopefully I will continue soon. I will need to organize the project and will probably release it as open source.




                                      Few videos of it in action
                                      https://photos.app.goo.gl/2fGB5Ef6h8aierKJ8
                                      https://photos.app.goo.gl/u41nxrkYLfdfYnGS9
                                      Last edited 10-17-2020, 05:09 PM.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Do you have an idea if/when you will release open build plans? I'd really like to build one of these ffb sticks...

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          @walmis

                                          Wow, great!!! What a monster!

                                          @propeler and walmis

                                          What do you use for axis sensors?
                                          i9 10920X @4.8GHz, 3090 OC, 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940)

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