VBS Helicopter Flight Control

Hi Guys,

 

We will soon be launching our new range of interchangeable flight grips. The VBS Multi-Grip Controls are going to be for both the Cyclic and Collective controls. The idea is that you buy the base unit that has all the sensors and interfaces in and then choose which grip you would like. If you want to fly a different helicopter in the future you simply buy a different grip from the Multi-Grip range and unscrew one and attach the other.

 

Our initial range of grips for the Cyclic is going to be the B8, AS350/Eurocopter, KA-50 and WAH-64D grips. With the B206, AS350 and KA-50 in the collective range. They will all be as accurate as possible with has much functionality as possible.

 

We are hoping to have these available early in the new year, as we are currently gathering images etc.. and making the 3D models of all the grips. If you any one has any images of the KA-50 controls they would be greatly appreciated or if you have a request for a particular grip please let us know!!

 

We will keep this thread updated of progress!!

 

Cheers

 

Rich

Komodo Simulations

Edited October 7, 2012 by KomodoSim

Welcome to the forums. Where are you based out of? What do you expect to run for cost on you cyclic and collective?

I can get you images and sizes for a OH-58 (206), and UH-1h Huey cyclic and collective if you are interested.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=413295&postcount=8

http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/kamov/ka-50/

Can you give us more details on the possible pricing?

Hi guys,

 

Thanks for the replies, have been around the forums for a while and just hunting around all the relevant threads. Thanks for the links!! We are based in the UK.

 

Our current VBS ProCyclic, which is based on the 206 is £450 (+vat + P&P). The VBS ProStart Collective, based on the 206 and is fully functional is also £450 (+vat + P&P). And our ProAT Pedals are £225 (+vat +P&P). Images below!

 

We're hoping to keep the prices around this sort of figure, but just waiting for the first quote to come back on the B8 grip.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Rich

Wow, it's great to see u guys on here again, had a horrible feeling that you had gone west like so many other ideas. Looking forward to seeing the KA50 set. :)

 

Loved the controls when I tried them at Weston a few years ago.

 

Cowboy10uk

That stuff looks awesome! I would be all over it if I was... single. :D

Right now I'm interested in the pedals which I might actually buy someday. Not anytime soon though but those are what I've been looking for. Affordable quality pedals instead of these Saitek toys. Those are what I've been looking for since other better quality pedals cost much more! Don't you dare to raise your price though as 300 € is my "not worth it" limit. ;)

Thanks for the great comments guys. The controls have come a very long way since Weston a few years ago. They are in a different league from then, they all use Hall Sensors with 12bit resolution now. I don't think there is nothing that hasn't been changed since then!! That's evolution for you!! Don't worry there is no plan to increase the price. We are constantly working to find ways to reduce the costs!!

 

BR

 

Rich

Damn, and I was impressed with the controls before, So quick question about the collective, I currently fly the dodosim 206 in FSX and of course The KA50 and fingers crossed the UH1 Huey when she turns up.

 

Do I have to buy one Collective with whichever head unit I want and then get seperate head for whichever aircraft I want to fly, or do I need to buy a full collective for each aircraft. I appreciate that the throttles on the helis are different. I understand for the Cyclic, I just need to buy whichever grip I want and it will swap, ala thrustmaster warthog / cougar, ( not that they ever brought any other grips out :( )

 

Also the pedals, Are they just rudders, or do they have a brake axis as well.

 

As u can tell, I'm very very intrested in getting this setup, would love to finally be able to fly my helis with the true controls, and ones that don't cost a small mortgage to buy.

 

Fingers crossed there's a Weston next year and you will be there. Can't wait to see the new versions in action.

 

Cowboy10uk

Hi,

 

The plan for the collective is the same as for the cyclic. You buy a base unit that has all the sensors and electronics in and the then which ever collective grip you want. You then just switch out the grip and change to another one. The adapter to attach the collective shaft is near the base meaning that any throttles that are housed in the shaft near the switch head can easily be accommodated. We are also looking to build in an adapter to allow you to either floor mount (AS350 style) the collective or have mount at seat level (B206).

 

We are also developing toe brakes for the pedals. Due to the more complex working of toe brakes, these wont be interchangeable. You will have to buy one or the other or both, but to be honest it's not an issue flying with toe brakes with a skidded aircraft.

 

Our VBS ProStart Collective it specifically designed to work with the DodoSim 206 and you can do a full start with it with full working idle release etc..

 

Yes, as far as I know Weston is going ahead next year and we are hoping to be there.

 

BR

 

Rich

Those pedals have quite narrow base. Do you think they would be fine with velcro straps on the floor or would they be wobbly?

I might actually buy them during next 6 months if I still have a job.

They might be a little wobbly. They come with four mounting holes, one in each corner. Best bet would be to probably mount them to a larger board.

 

BR

 

Rich

Is Force Feedback technology in either Cyclic or Collective stick?

Hhhmm force feedback!! Now there's a debate!! No they don't come with force feedback, mainly due to the fact that helicopters with hydraulic controls don't feel any feedback thru the controls.

 

We are working on a trim system that will motor the controls when the helicopter is being flown by the autopilot or hold the controls in position when a SAS is engaged. You then press a button to release the system to allow you move the controls, then release the button to either hold them in the new position or allow the AP to take over again.

 

The cyclic at the moment uses friction bearings to hold the controls in position when you let them go. So it's a sort of trim function that allows you to fly hands off. The collective also has a friction adjuster that allows you adjust the amount of friction on the stick. You can either have it solid so it can't move, have it totally free with no friction whatsoever or anything in between.

 

BR

 

Rich

Edited October 8, 2012 by KomodoSim

 

^^

:shocking::notworthy:

Hhhmm force feedback!! No there's a debate!! No they don't come with force feedback, mainly due to the fact that helicopters with hydraulic controls don't feel any feedback thru the controls.

So, your sticks are good mainly for helicopters with hydraulic controls? My question was not about what stick forces do pilots feel in real helicopters with hydraulic or conventional (cable, levers, links) sticks. Also, there is no need for exclamation marks.

 

We are working on a trim system that will motor the controls when the helicopter is being flown by the autopilot or hold the controls in position when a SAS is engaged. You then press a button to release the system to allow you move the controls, then release the button to either hold them in the new position or allow the AP to take over again.

Well, force feedback (FF) sticks already have motors/actuators. That's why I asked original FF question to begin with. Thus, I conclude that you are not happy with current FF sticks technology performance and are working on something similar.

 

Thanks for your response,

Hi,

 

The plan for the collective is the same as for the cyclic. You buy a base unit that has all the sensors and electronics in and the then which ever collective grip you want. You then just switch out the grip and change to another one. The adapter to attach the collective shaft is near the base meaning that any throttles that are housed in the shaft near the switch head can easily be accommodated. We are also looking to build in an adapter to allow you to either floor mount (AS350 style) the collective or have mount at seat level (B206).

 

We are also developing toe brakes for the pedals. Due to the more complex working of toe brakes, these wont be interchangeable. You will have to buy one or the other or both, but to be honest it's not an issue flying with toe brakes with a skidded aircraft.

 

Our VBS ProStart Collective it specifically designed to work with the DodoSim 206 and you can do a full start with it with full working idle release etc..

 

Yes, as far as I know Weston is going ahead next year and we are hoping to be there.

 

BR

 

Rich

 

Thanks for the quick answer Rich.

 

I think I may have just found my next set of controls. :) look forward to seeing you next year and having a play of course ;) , once they announce the dates. Then if I can get my better half:book to agree, I'm pretty sure an order will be heading your way.

 

Any idea what price range you are looking at for the ka50 cyclic and collective addons. I'm guessing they are a little while away, so may have already got the base units with the 206 grip and collective by then.

 

Cowboy10uk

 

P.S. With the Huey apparently heading this way, although no official announcement, if you're thinking of new grip and collective ideas. ;) hint hint

Edited October 8, 2012 by Cowboy10uk

So, your sticks are good mainly for helicopters with hydraulic controls? My question was not about what stick forces do pilots feel in real helicopters with hydraulic or conventional (cable, levers, links) sticks. Also, there is no need for exclamation marks.

 

Our controls can be used for any type of helicopters, hydraulic or not. The reason I phrased my answer the way I did was that there is a common misconception that you feel vibrations etc.. through the flight controls of helicopters and therefore people ask for FF to simulate this to increase realism. As the majority of larger helicopters, ie non-piston engined, have hydraulic assisted controls any vibrations etc.. are damped out by the hydraulics and therefore there is nothing to force feedback.

 

Well, force feedback (FF) sticks already have motors/actuators. That's why I asked original FF question to begin with. Thus, I conclude that you are not happy with current FF sticks technology performance and are working on something similar.

 

To my knowledge the FF sticks on the market don't simulate the autopilot or SAS system. So yes we are working on something that we feel is more accurate to helicopter based systems.

 

Thanks for your response,

 

Thanks for adding to thread and no further exclamation marks.

 

BR

 

Rich

Thanks for the quick answer Rich.

 

I think I may have just found my next set of controls. :) look forward to seeing you next year and having a play of course ;) , once they announce the dates. Then if I can get my better half:book to agree, I'm pretty sure an order will be heading your way.

 

Any idea what price range you are looking at for the ka50 cyclic and collective addons. I'm guessing they are a little while away, so may have already got the base units with the 206 grip and collective by then.

 

Cowboy10uk

 

P.S. With the Huey apparently heading this way, although no official announcement, if you're thinking of new grip and collective ideas. ;) hint hint

 

Great stuff, we are talking to the organisers to try and get a date for next years event as sons as possible.

 

We are hoping them to be around the same price as the controls as they are at the moment so around the £450 mark as rough estimate. But this may change depending on how development goes.

 

We are just finishing off the 3D model for the B8 and will also be looking at the collective for the Huey. We have access to the one at the Weston Museum for measurements etc..

 

BR

 

Rich

Once again Rich thanks for quick reply. Looking forward to seeing the new grip and collective range then.

 

So have I got this right

 

206 cyclic with base unit - £450

206 collective with base unit - £450

 

Ka50 grip only - £ 450 (estimated)

Ka50 collective only - £450 (estimated)

 

All +VAT of course

 

Just doing my sums, so I know how much to beg for ;)

 

Keep up the great work, nice to see heli controls that don't need a mortgage to setup.

 

Cowboy10uk

Edited October 8, 2012 by Cowboy10uk

No probs!!

 

Not quite, see below.

 

Our current VBS ProStart Collective - Not interchangeable -£450

Our current VBS ProCyclic - Not interchangeable - £450

 

Future VBS Mulit-Grip System Collective base - £275 eatimated

Future VBS Mulit-Grip System Cyclic base - £275 estimated

 

Future VBS Mulit-Grip Collective Grips - £175 estimated

Future VBS Mulit-Grip Cylcic Grips - £175 estimated

 

As you say these are all plus VAT where applicable and plus P&P. These are very rough estimates and good be totally wrong!:doh: but hopefully they shouldn't change too much. Each grip may vary slightly from grip to grip depending on how complex each grip is.

 

BR

 

Rich

To my knowledge the FF sticks on the market don't simulate the autopilot or SAS system. So yes we are working on something that we feel is more accurate to helicopter based systems.

FF sticks alone never "simulates" the autopilot. I don't know about SAS becuase I don't know what it is. Anyway, FF stick responds to the aircraft simulator data feed to position the stick according to the actual stick position in the simulator, or to simulate some effect such as vibration and etc. Thus, if the the simulator moves the in-simulator stick, the FF stick will move as well.

 

I clearly demonstrated that in this video, some three years ago:

 

I since gave up on a FF stick for Black Shark and somewhat followed discussion about G940.

 

BTW, your prices are way out of rich of an average sim enthusiast here. You are talking about 275+275+175+175 = 900 GBP, that is approximately 1400 USD for two sticks without pedals. And those sticks don't even have FF or a mechanism for auto-piloting or holding (through actuators/motors) the sticks.

 

What is your position within the company? Are you a salesman or engineer/technician?

Hi,

 

From what you say then maybe FF controls are able to replicate the AP and SAS on some aircraft. SAS is a stability and trim system for helicopters. From your video even with a short shaft the fidelity of the FF seems very low and would only be magnified on a longer shaft making it less accurate. The system we are designing will hopefully have a much more accurate and finite control.

 

Yes our prices are high, but that is mainly due to supply and demand. Because the market for these types of controls is very small it's not possible to make them in large enough quantities to reduce the cost significantly enough to make them the same sort of price as Saiteks and other companies controls. Also our controls are made mainly from aluminium and Nylon, making them much stronger and sturdier than other controls out there. They also use hall sensors with many custom designed parts. If we could make them cheaper then we would. Also from the level of some of the cockpits on this forum some people are willing to go the extra to get as close to real thing as possible.

 

As for my position in the company I'm not sure it has any relevance, but I'm the owner, designer and engineer.

 

BR

 

Rich

No probs!!

 

Not quite, see below.

 

Our current VBS ProStart Collective - Not interchangeable -£450

Our current VBS ProCyclic - Not interchangeable - £450

 

Future VBS Mulit-Grip System Collective base - £275 eatimated

Future VBS Mulit-Grip System Cyclic base - £275 estimated

 

Future VBS Mulit-Grip Collective Grips - £175 estimated

Future VBS Mulit-Grip Cylcic Grips - £175 estimated

 

As you say these are all plus VAT where applicable and plus P&P. These are very rough estimates and good be totally wrong!:doh: but hopefully they shouldn't change too much. Each grip may vary slightly from grip to grip depending on how complex each grip is.

 

BR

 

Rich

 

Cheers Rich, that will work for me. :)

 

Hajduk, I'm sorry, but I don't see how the prices are well out of touch. As we all know heli controls are specialist sim parts, which you can't get anywhere. Most setups I've seen retail around the £1500 mark. In one hit that is a lot of money. This way however, the system is able to be bought over time, although I'm sure Rich would prefer we all order everything at the same time. ;)

 

Surely that must be easier on the home simmer. I know I will certainly find it easier. Also with this you don't have to buy everything, if you already have a stick, or pedals then just use them. £450 for a collective and a ka50 collective at that, not to mention one I can change the look of for under £200. Show me anything that even comes close to what is being offered.

 

We have here someone who is trying to bring to the sim market an affordable way to have heli controls at home. Yes granted if you buy everything together it is expensive. However just think of how much most of us have spent or will spend on this hobby.

 

I can only speak for myself.

 

PC £1500 approximate

Monitors - £750 approx

Track ir - £150

Thrustmaster Warthog - £ 300

Thrustmaster Cougar - £250

Saitek X52 - £80

Saitek pedals - £150

Saitek yoke - £160

 

And that is just of the top of my head.

 

I'm still looking at £300 for a touchscreen monitor for Helios

 

And £1100 for a saitek proflight cockpit. 2 x radio panels, 1 x AP Panel, 1 x info panel, 8 x instruments

 

And that is simming on the cheap.

 

No full size home cockpits, no dedicated cockpit, just a PC, tri screen and a portable cockpit I can set up when flying fsx. The various sticks show the route most of us go to get a good hotas setup, and I'm guessing most of us who fly both FSX and DCS will own, both a yoke and hotas.

 

So to be honest, to get a good quality collective, Cyclic or pedals that's interchangeable and can be used on both sims, at £450 is bloody good value.

 

Oh and I do only consider myself an average simmer.

 

Cowboy10uk

Edited October 8, 2012 by Cowboy10uk

:thumbup: