IFF

Now that we have multiple aircraft being developed for DCS World, will there be an IFF system to help with force on force play?

I know it wasn't implemented in DCS A-10 because its classified, but now it will be needed really. Will there be an approximated system in the future?

I can't say what will happen, but I'll give you this thought:

There is an IFF function in FC2. So a way to identify friend from foe is not impossible.

The difference is between giving the function to the player, and simulating the actual system. The latter is most likely never going to happen; this stuff rates alongside stealth technology in how classified it is. But an approximation that gives you the function is not impossible.

I dunno, the SADL in the A-10C is a pretty damned convincing implementation.

I can't say what will happen, but I'll give you this thought:

 

There is an IFF function in FC2. So a way to identify friend from foe is not impossible.

The difference is between giving the function to the player, and simulating the actual system. The latter is most likely never going to happen; this stuff rates alongside stealth technology in how classified it is. But an approximation that gives you the function is not impossible.

But IF ED done a simple version ,in their own way, that I guess that would be good.

DCS: MiG-21 Bis will have IFF modelled.

ain't the iff already integrated into radars ? (at least on modern ac) i mean, you don't have to operate them, radar blips are displayed in different ways if the contact is a friend or foe

ain't the iff already integrated into radars ? (at least on modern ac) i mean, you don't have to operate them, radar blips are displayed in different ways if the contact is a friend or foe

The IFF interrogator will form part of the RADAR system, yes. But not all aircraft, even fighters, have an interrogator. Although admittedly those that don't are either being retired or upgraded for the most part.

ALL military aircraft however have an IFF transponder which includes IFF mode 1-3 (the same as the airliner you fly in when you go on your holidays) and mode 4 which is the mode that replies with the code(s) required to confirm you are friendly.

In order for realistic IFF (ie not FC2 style god mode IFF) to be implemented both have to be modelled. And all aircraft (even those already realeased) would need to have their IFF transponders modelled.

It's also important to remember that IFF does NOT tell you if something is friendly or hostile. The most it can ever tell you is that something if definitely friendly.

If IFF were implemented properly, and you forgot to turn on/configure your IFF transponder while starting up your A-10C (for example) any fighter interrogating your IFF would get the same response they would from an enemy aircraft (that is why IFF can't tell you something is hostile).

If IFF were implemented properly, and you forgot to turn on/configure your IFF transponder while starting up your A-10C (for example) any fighter interrogating your IFF would get the same response they would from an enemy aircraft (that is why IFF can't tell you something is hostile).

I prey for that day..

You will get so many pissed of pilots and T/Ks it will be epic...

There are huge problems with modeling IFF properly - specifically, AI issues, not to mention player issues.

In order for realistic IFF (ie not FC2 style god mode IFF) to be implemented both have to be modelled. And all aircraft (even those already realeased) would need to have their IFF transponders modelled.

There are huge problems with modeling IFF properly - specifically, AI issues, not to mention player issues.

Indeed. But as you well know, there are "huge problems" with modelling many things. ;)

As for player issues, pah, they'd better learn.

The IFF interrogator will form part of the RADAR system, yes. But not all aircraft, even fighters, have an interrogator. Although admittedly those that don't are either being retired or upgraded for the most part.

 

ALL military aircraft however have an IFF transponder which includes IFF mode 1-3 (the same as the airliner you fly in when you go on your holidays) and mode 4 which is the mode that replies with the code(s) required to confirm you are friendly.

 

In order for realistic IFF (ie not FC2 style god mode IFF) to be implemented both have to be modelled. And all aircraft (even those already realeased) would need to have their IFF transponders modelled.

 

It's also important to remember that IFF does NOT tell you if something is friendly or hostile. The most it can ever tell you is that something if definitely friendly.

 

If IFF were implemented properly, and you forgot to turn on/configure your IFF transponder while starting up your A-10C (for example) any fighter interrogating your IFF would get the same response they would from an enemy aircraft (that is why IFF can't tell you something is hostile).

And I would have no issue if ED created their own IFF system based on how it works in real life, even if it's just an approximation of what the classified system works like. I think it's important enough to gameplay, especially now that DACT and force on force style games are possible.

No real issues with it being classified to be honest. The aspects of IFF that are protected aren't really needed for it to be modelled in the sim anyway.

What IFF does is public knowledge, it's certain aspects of how it does it that is protected and the crypto codes themselves, neither are needed to simulate e function of IFF in a game.

No real issues with it being classified to be honest. The aspects of IFF that are protected aren't really needed for it to be modelled in the sim anyway.

 

What IFF does is public knowledge, it's certain aspects of how it does it that is protected and the crypto codes themselves, neither are needed to simulate e function of IFF in a game.

I was wondering when someone was going to say that.

I prey for that day..

 

You will get so many pissed of pilots and T/Ks it will be epic...

+1

No real issues with it being classified to be honest. The aspects of IFF that are protected aren't really needed for it to be modelled in the sim anyway.

 

What IFF does is public knowledge, it's certain aspects of how it does it that is protected and the crypto codes themselves, neither are needed to simulate e function of IFF in a game.

When it's so "easy", why we don't have IFF modelled today? :music_whistling:

And if pilots forget to set up their IFF ... their fault. ;)

kind regards,

Fire

When it's so "easy", why we don't have IFF modelled today? :music_whistling:

Nobody ever said it was "easy". Especially from a programming point of view (although I know less than nothing about such things). But it certainly isn't impossible, at least there are no issues with the information required to model IFF not being available.

And if pilots forget to set up their IFF ... their fault. ;)

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

Maybe, maybe not, but it'd certainly be the fault of the pilot who shot them down. As I and others have said many times on the subject, IFF is not a system that will tell you who the bad guys are.

All it can ever do is confirm that someone if definitely friendly, an incorrect response to an IFF interrogation (or no response at all) does not mean you can fire on the aircraft in question, it just means you need to investigate further. It may just take a call to AWACS to confirm the target's identity, or you might have to close in for a visual ID to name but two possibilities.

Modeling IFF operation is easy. Modeling AI procedures to deal with IFF operation is not; and this is the point that Eddie is bringing up - you can teach a person to run their IFF matrix. You can do this with AI as well, but it isn't as easy as it is to model an IFF system where you flip a switch, set a couple of numbers and that's what's transmitted.

Think about it this way - how does AI perceive IFF? Will friendly tanks shoot you up on start-up because your IFF is off? If you forget to turn it on or it fails on TO, will your SAMs shoot you down even though you just took off from your own airfield?

Well, it would be a start to model it strictly for MP player-player interaction and leave the AI out of it (that is don't let them interrogate, but make them answer to interrogations). I'm sure this will get some more thought when we get a true A2A bird.

Maybe, maybe not, but it'd certainly be the fault of the pilot who shot them down. As I and others have said many times on the subject, IFF is not a system that will tell you who the bad guys are.

 

All it can ever do is confirm that someone if definitely friendly, an incorrect response to an IFF interrogation (or no response at all) does not mean you can fire on the aircraft in question, it just means you need to investigate further. It may just take a call to AWACS to confirm the target's identity, or you might have to close in for a visual ID to name but two possibilities.

Yep, to intercept and make a visual ID would help. Or we have a DCS F-15 with NCTR. :D

With the AWACS, you have also an AI dealing with data to identify the contact.

One solution would be, if we can set up an IFF frequency for the whole team in the ME. So, the AI knows, with which data it has to be interrogate.

kind regards,

Fire

PS: I didn't mean, it is easy to implement. But when it isn't impossible ... same question.

If IFF were implemented properly, and you forgot to turn on/configure your IFF transponder while starting up your A-10C (for example) any fighter interrogating your IFF would get the same response they would from an enemy aircraft (that is why IFF can't tell you something is hostile).

Are you saying that failure to configure the iff transponder on mission start will open up the possibility that my a-10c would be torn apart by aim-120s from one zealous bvr f-15c pilot?? oh man that would be absolutely awesome! my imagination goes to what happens after the a-10 pilot is rescued, and he meets the f-15 pilot in the bar a few evenings after the "accident"..

Your imagination should go to the A-10C pilot's debrief after he is rescued, where he gets ripped for not configuring his IFF properly.

Sorry for bumping but just came across this topic and seems an interesting feature that no other sim is properly simulating.

So, my 2 cents on the difficulties commented by the ED team:

Modeling IFF operation is easy. Modeling AI procedures to deal with IFF operation is not

I partly agree as this hasn't been done before in other sims, but personally I cannot see a big deal on programming this:

Will friendly tanks shoot you up on start-up because your IFF is off?

No, they can see you (VID).

If you forget to turn it on or it fails on TO, will your SAMs shoot you down even though you just took off from your own airfield?

Just think the same way they would do in real life. In this case they shoudn't shoot as they are expected to be there (ATO).

My opinion on this is that you could either simulate ATO knowledge and "contact history memory" or you could take a simpler to implement solution using "god mode SA" such as checking "god mode" picture and assume the former situation if friendlies are within lets say 50nm.

I would say vis ID as long as friendly units are supposed to be operating in the area at that time, target is not maneuvering against us, RWR/ELINT is naked, no NCTR info, and AWACs/GCI/CIC/any-other-form-of-CCC don't declare the contacts as hostile...

It would be great to have this feature in DCSW as it is something indispensable in todays electronic battlefield, and no other sim has been capable of properly simulating it to date.

Harpoon 3 and Dangerous Waters are the only military sims with something similar to that.

My opinion is that you should write the code for this and see how easy or hard it is for yourself. Once you start getting into nuances, things get pretty crazy.

Of course, you can simulate just about anything, but what's the cost?

Just think the same way they would do in real life. In this case they shoudn't shoot as they are expected to be there (ATO).

 

My opinion on this is that you could either simulate ATO knowledge and "contact history memory" or you could take a simpler to implement solution using "god mode SA" such as checking "god mode" picture and assume the former situation if friendlies are within lets say 50nm.

Modeling IFF operation is easy. Modeling AI procedures to deal with IFF operation is not; and this is the point that Eddie is bringing up - you can teach a person to run their IFF matrix. You can do this with AI as well, but it isn't as easy as it is to model an IFF system where you flip a switch, set a couple of numbers and that's what's transmitted.

 

Think about it this way - how does AI perceive IFF? Will friendly tanks shoot you up on start-up because your IFF is off? If you forget to turn it on or it fails on TO, will your SAMs shoot you down even though you just took off from your own airfield?

IFF is very simple, people here seem to be thinking its complex and difficult where in fact it is not. All that is required for DCS is 4 digit codes for mode 4 thats all nothing else. How the AI should behave is only to interrogate when the player is in the air so then you must have it setup prior to take off. When you are in the air the friendly SAM/aircraft sends a IFF signal and if you are on the right IFF code it will regard you as friendly.(already modelled in DCS World) We already are doing this in FSX with TACPAC and it works really well. The more complex side of this as far as DCS is concerned is mode 3C because that is what you use for ATC and the ATC for DCS would need to be modelled like FSXs ATC by assigning Squak codes etc. Tanks etc can remain the same so they already know the side you are on but SAMs/AAA could be modified so that if the wrong mode 4 code they would shoot at you.