Overhead, power setting into the break ?

Hi all,

I'm getting lots of confusing information as to the best parameters for this, and have tried it many ways. The most consistent for me is to break, snap throttle to idle, 1500 @ 300KAIS, hard 3g, with nose down maybe 2-3 degs. This brings me to downwind at around 1100, and speed around 220, pretty consistently, leaving me ready to drop gear/flaps, before entering the base turn 1000 @ 190. Rest is easy to manage.

Would like to get an authorative opinion of how its done in the A10 (don't care about other aircraft).

Cheers.

Don't know about the A10 boys but in the RAF we flew the break at 500ft level turn. Idle throttle using G and speedbrakes to bleed speed. Never saw any USAF aircraft break into circuit at 1500 ft unless ATC requested you to position behind another aircraft already late downwind.

The reason for flying the break at low-level is because its intended to be an enemy avoidance procedure. Min time approaching airfield, min time at slow speed and min time in circuit pattern over airfield staying within the defensive perimeter.

250 KIAS @ 1500ft AGL. 2-3g break turn with throttles mid range, speed brake as required on downwind. Gear & flaps down on downwind once speed drops.

Once you reach the perch start an unloaded roll onto final and let the nose drop (around 10 degrees nose down).

If you do it right you should find yourself on around a 0.5nm final at around 500ft.

If you do it right you should find yourself on around a 0.5nm final at around 500ft.

That's divebombing... :pilotfly:

That's divebombing... :pilotfly:

Yeah you're right. What I should have said is 1nm, been doing it so long I don't pay attention to the numbers anymore.

Here's one way to do it!

On a slightly related topic: When DCS: F/A-18 comes out I'm looking forward to posting procedurally correct videos of carrier ops based on CV NATOPS (Day VFR carrier approach and pattern, night & foul weather, etc.). My boss is a former CAG LSO, and I know he'll be happy to correct anything incorrect so folks and get it right from the horse's mouth.

Pls don't hijack the topic.

Cheers.

:thumbup:

....... turn with throttles mid range, ...

So the procedure is no more specific than that. ?

So the procedure is no more specific than that. ?

Nope. How could it be? The exact power setting required will vary depending on aircraft weight and drag from stores.

Sometimes you'll find you need some speed brake on downwind to bring the speed down for gear & flap extension, and other times (if you're still carrying stores) the energy loss in the turn will be enough to bring you below 200KIAS on downwind.

Nope. How could it be? The exact power setting required will vary depending on aircraft weight and drag from stores.

cheers, makes sense,

Is there any alt loss on the first break ?

cheers, makes sense,

 

Is there any alt loss on the first break ?

No.

Don't know about the A10 boys but in the RAF we flew the break at 500ft level turn. Idle throttle using G and speedbrakes to bleed speed. Never saw any USAF aircraft break into circuit at 1500 ft unless ATC requested you to position behind another aircraft already late downwind.

 

The reason for flying the break at low-level is because its intended to be an enemy avoidance procedure. Min time approaching airfield, min time at slow speed and min time in circuit pattern over airfield staying within the defensive perimeter.

That's how we fly it in my part of the world too. Step it down to 250' on a Friday afternoon for a "bar one arrival". I went flying in a yank USMC KC the other day and they fly it at circuit altitude at 220kts. When I mentioned a 'low break' they were blown away, they had never heard of such a thing.

Last night we trained the overhead... Ingress was at 300kts (75% FAN RPM), 3G turn with minimal or no altitude loss, throttle cut on rollout (pretty high speed - 270kts), gear down, look left - wintip slide over runway and just the moment it slips off the runway into the final turn bleeding it some more with 1.8G, 60° bank and just a little less then 5° degree descent...

Looking constantly to the runway and sharpening the turn as required... This gives us usually a rollout on runway heading of arround 150kts, then goes brakes and flaps and Jack is your uncle... :thumbup:

One thing that remains questionable is gear down speed threshold... What is the exact highest speed you can let 'em gears down?

If 270kts is too fast, throttle in break should be less then 75% i guess... :huh:

250 KIAS @ 1500ft AGL. 2-3g break turn with throttles mid range, speed brake as required on downwind. Gear & flaps down on downwind once speed drops.

 

Once you reach the perch start an unloaded roll onto final and let the nose drop (around 10 degrees nose down).

 

If you do it right you should find yourself on around a 0.5nm final at around 500ft.

Thats not a run in and break to land, thats more like an overhead or deadside join. 250kts seems a little on the low side too. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term 'break' as it applies to the USAF.

Only I would add that deploying the speedbrakes in the hog isn't necessary as G alone will be sufficient to bleed the speed (it's considerably slower than a F-15 !).

On a Friday afternoon just before 'happy hour' (i.e. Bar1 arrival) this would be the standard break (btw the Jet Provost in the vid below is similar in many ways to the A10)

cheers, makes sense,

 

Is there any alt loss on the first break ?

Fishing (no pun intended) for info to make a video are you? :prop:

Here is what it states in real world A-10 training documentation...long read but lots of detail...

Overhead Pattern, Landing, and Roll-Out.

-Initial. Once in the VFR pattern, obtain wind information from tower and consider its effect throughout the pattern. Roll out on initial at the assigned altitude, maintaining 250 to 300 KIAS (as directed by local regulations), and advise tower of your intentions (e.g., “WARTHOG 1, INITIAL, FULL STOP/LOW APPROACH”).

-Break. When on initial, visually acquire a ground reference point abeam the break point. Execute the break when crossing the approach end or up to one-third of the way down the runway. Aggressively roll into a 60- to 70-degree bank level turn and smoothly reduce power while increasing back pressure to 2 to 3 G. The TVV is an excellent aid in maintaining a level turn. Use trim during the pitchout and after rolling out on downwind to help maintain level flight. Increase pitch 2 to 3 degrees to maintain level flight on

downwind.

-Downwind. Roll out on downwind referencing the runway. Take crosswinds into account and crab into the wind to maintain an appropriate lateral distance from the runway. The amount of crab is approximately double the crab angle needed on initial. For a 1,500-foot AGL overhead pattern, place the runway halfway between the outermost wing pylon (stations 1 or 11) and the wingtip as viewed from the cockpit. For crosswinds, favor the wingtip or outermost pylon as appropriate. Prior to configuring for landing, maintain level flight with a minimum of 150 KIAS or final turn airspeed, whichever is greater (185 KIAS recommended).

-Touchdown Point. Abeam the touchdown point, open speed brakes 40 percent. Below 200 KIAS, lower the gear, then flaps down to full. At this point, anticipate the need to add some power and make a slight nose-up pitch change to maintain the downwind altitude and airspeed. Prior to starting the final turn, confirm configuration; check the anti-skid ENGAGED, landing light ON, landing gear handle DOWN, all three landing gear lights ON, flaps full DOWN, and hydraulic pressures in the green. Do not go slower

than the computed final turn airspeed or the “slightly fast” AOA indication. Trim the aircraft to the final turn airspeed before starting the final turn. Monitor position in relation to the touchdown point and maintain level flight while anticipating the turn to base.

-Perch. When the aimpoint is just aft of the trailing edge of the wingtip (approximately 1 mile beyond touchdown), begin the base turn and transmit “WARTHOG 1, BASE, GEAR DOWN, LOW APPROACH/FULL STOP.” The perch is the first critical point of the final turn. Be stabilized on altitude; if fighting the parameters, the final turn will most likely be erratic.

-Final Turn. The goal is to fly a symmetric final turn, rolling out on final at 1 NM and 300 feet AGL. Initially, over-bank and establish a descending turn with approximately 45 degrees of bank and 10 degrees nose low. This overbank will help lower the aircraft’s nose. As the turn progresses, hold approximately 30 to 45 degrees of bank and 10 degrees nose low. One technique for a 1,500-foot overhead pattern is to place the top of the G meter (right turn) or magnetic compass (left turn) on the horizon during the final turn. Be sure to visualize the true horizon in mountainous terrain. Reduce power as the aircraft rolls off the perch and adjust as necessary to maintain a “slightly fast” AOA indication but no slower than computed final

turn airspeed. NOTE: A “slightly fast” AOA indication at a significantly higher airspeed than the computed airspeed may be a problem. Analyze the possibilities below in order to determine the proper course of action (e.g., go around, adjust the next pattern wider, adjust the pitch/bank/power, or relax G):

Adjust Pitch and Bank During the Turn. Adjust pitch, bank, and power as

necessary to be half way around the final turn with a 50-percent decrease in altitude. Once again, the goal is to roll out on final at approximately 300 feet AGL and 1 mile from the runway. When the aircraft is half way around the final turn (90 degrees to the runway), it should have lost 600 feet (1,500-foot pattern minus 300 feet at 1 mile = 1,200 feet altitude loss during final turn). Use this point as a guide to adjust your pitch and bank during the turn. At about two-thirds through the turn, start cross-checking the visual approach slope indicator (VASI)/precision approach path indicator (PAPI) lights (red over white/pink desired) and watch the aimpoint; roll out 2.5 to 3 degrees below the HUD horizon for proper glide path intercept.

-Final. Reduce bank and back pressure to roll out on final and adjust power to slow to final approach airspeed. As the airspeed bleeds off to final approach airspeed, increase back pressure (angle of attack) slightly to prevent an excessive sink rate. If a “slightly fast” indication on the AOA indexer is reached prior to decelerating to computed final approach speed, adjust power to maintain the “slightly fast” indication. Adjust bank as necessary to maintain alignment with the runway centerline. The rate of descent should be 600 to 700 fpm with a glide slope of 2.5 to 3 degrees. One technique is to place the TVV on the aimpoint. This should correspond to 2.5 to 3 degrees nose low on the HUD. The aimpoint should be on the runway threshold in order to touchdown approximately 500 feet down the

runway.

-Flare and Touch Down. Crossing the overrun, raise the nose slightly to break the rate of descent while slowly retarding the throttles to Idle. Touch down on the centerline within the first 1,000 feet of the runway.

-Touchdown. After touchdown, lower the nosewheel to the runway and deploy 100 percent speed brakes. Remember that speed brakes are highly effective above 80 KIAS. If available runway does not require maximum braking, reduce speed by maintaining the landing attitude or by extending speed brakes. Use caution when aero braking because tail scraping can occur. Once the nose gear is on the runway and airspeed is below 100 KIAS, gently test the brakes to ensure they are working.

-Brakes. If landing distance is critical or speed brakes and anti-skid are not

available, use one smooth brake application until slowed. Do not drag the brakes during roll-out or taxi, as this will generate excessive heat, possibly causing hot brakes.

-Spacing. The A-10 generates a lot of jet wash in the pattern; flying too close to the preceding aircraft may lead to flying the aircraft out of it forcibly. Spacing between aircraft on final is critical. A go-around may be necessary under certain conditions even with a well-flown pattern.

-Roll-Out. Slow to taxi speed while braking based upon runway distance remaining. When and how fast to slow down will largely depend on whether the turn off will be mid-field or the end of the runway and the length of the runway. Monitor runway distance remaining and control the aircraft speed accordingly. At approximately 1,000 feet prior to turnoff, have the aircraft slowed to a normal taxi speed (less than 20 knots). Excessive speed at turnoff may cause the A-10 to depart the prepared surface, especially when the runway is anything other than dry.

Additionally...AFI 11-2A-OA-10 Volume 3 says....

3.23. Overhead Traffic Patterns:

3.23.1. Altitude and airspeed will be IAW T.O. 1A-10A-1 or as directed locally.

3.23.2. Overhead patterns may be flown with unexpended practice ordnance, night illumination flares, 30 mm, unexpended live air-to-air and forward firing ordnance.

3.23.3. Initiate the break over the touchdown point or as directed.

3.23.4. Execute the break individually in a level 180 degree turn to the downwind leg at minimum intervals of 5 seconds (except IP/SEFE chase or when in tactical formation).

3.23.5. Aircraft will be wings level on final at approximately 300 feet AGL and 1 mile from the planned touchdown point.

3.24. Tactical Overhead Traffic Patterns:

3.24.1. Tactical entry to the overhead traffic pattern is permitted if the following conditions are met:

3.24.1.1. Use published overhead pattern altitude and airspeed.

3.24.1.2. Locally develop and coordinate with appropriate air traffic control agencies specific procedures.

3.24.1.3. Four aircraft are the maximum permitted. Aircraft/elements more than 6,000 feet in trail are considered a separate flight.

3.24.1.4. Normally position wingmen opposite the direction of the break.

3.24.1.5. Regardless of the formation flown, no aircraft should be offset from the runway in the direction of the break; the intent is to avoid requiring a tighter than normal turn to arrive on normal downwind.

3.24.1.6. Fly normal downwind and base position.

Guess they don't want those unexpended mk-82's hanging off the a/c during the break. :) Are bombs usually jettisoned for any type approach? I think they probably should be before entering airspace around a friendly base.

Also interesting that you drop the gears at the abeam of touchdown position. Very similar to a CV circuit.

Guess they don't want those unexpended mk-82's hanging off the a/c during the break. :) Are bombs usually jettisoned for any type approach? I think they probably should be before entering airspace around a friendly base.

 

 

Also interesting that you drop the gears at the abeam of touchdown position. Very similar to a CV circuit.

No, the only time our pilots jetison weapons (live or training) is in an emergency. We had jets return often in Afghanistan with live, unexpended ordinance.

Weapons aren't cheap after all...

Fishing (no pun intended) for info to make a video are you? :prop:

:megalol: Made one already :smilewink: But got slapped down for it. Trying to get the bones of a better one.

The only thing not included in Eddie's excerpt is that during the break, your target power setting is ~90% Core RPM.

It's the same throttle position required during the runup prior to takeoff, so you can use muscle memory to set the power without looking at the instruments.

Here is what it states in real world A-10 training documentation...long read but lots of detail...

Cheers paulrkiii, the AFMAN extract is just what i was looking for.

The only thing not included in Eddie's excerpt is that during the break, your target power setting is ~90% Core RPM.

And 300ft @ 1mile on final

Thanks for pursuing this, Fish. I appreciate your videos very much and I find this subject very confusing.

Ok, have made a video. Not perfect, but think it explains most of the critical features of the overhead. A couple of notes to add.

1. if the break is made on the numbers, then the roll out point is going to be abeam of the same, very close to the threshold, and so the air brakes will need to be deployed directly after rollout.

2. The power settings are critical. If you come out of the first turn any more than 240 knots, it is very difficult to be fully configured and trimmed, before the final turn. Best setting i found was a rollout speed of between 200 and 220. (the official procedure is not prescriptive on this speed).

3. The procedure requires a gradual reduction of power into the turn. I found this impossible to do and manage the turn, and roll out speed. Easiest way was to set it before rolling into the turn. One less thing to try to control!!

3. I have not found an accurate way to determine the 1 mile mark, but by deduction, if you have turned correctly from the perch point, you should roll out onto final at this point.

So here's my attempt.

Looking forward to see other's, and all constructive comments welcome.

Hey Fish,

Nice video mate, you've executed a pretty darn tight overhead break there! I notice you mentioned in the video that you found this procedure was difficult and quite complex (forgive me, I forget your exact wording). However, IMHO the overhead break is pretty simple and shouldn't be too intense if done properly. Try not to overthink the procedure as ultimately this maneouvre is just a way to blast into the second half of a normal circuit.

First up, my view on this comes from flying fast jets in the sim world and being fortunate enough to sim with some real world fast jet pilots in Australia. I do fly the A-10C quite a bit but not as much as I would like.

I'd say that you were too agressive in the break pull which resulted in being too close to the runway on downwind.

On downwind you should roll out at between 1.3-1.5NM from the threshold (This is based on HAWK and F18 info, could be different for the A10 but I recommend trying this spacing for downwind). Either use the TAC/DME from the airfield to get this info (Be careful as the TACAN is not always near the runway in use) or find a visual reference off the chart or DCS map. At this point continue to slow to 180KIAS as per your own instructions and make your base turn (perch) when the trailing edge of the wing cleares the runway threshold. This equates to having the runway 30-40 degrees (roughly) aft of your 3/9 line.

The base turn (Also, probably some Aussie lingo) or perch is accomplished by a standard rate turn (30 degress AOB). You mentioned that it is difficult to pick the 1 mile rollout mark, but I would forget about that and transition your scan to the PAPI (approach lights. 2 white and 2 red for on profile) or just the sight picture of the runway to judge whether you are too high or low on the approach. Looking up to the other end of the runway is rule number one of landing any aircraft, and this will help you align better with the runway from further out. I always remember an instructor telling me that a good landing is the result of a stable approach. Try to correct deviations from profile before they get out of hand.

Everything else in your vid looked spot on to me though.

Anyway, this is my view on how to get it done and it's the way we do it in Australia. This doesn't mean it's the same as the USAF, so if there are differences (I can't see why though) I would be happily corrected. Useless trivia - in Australia we call it the 'Initial and Pitch' manoeuvre.

I'm about to go and fly a couple myself to refamil with the A-10.

Cheers