Replica radio panels.

Way back when I was flying more FSX I used to have another pit which was suited for more GA flying. I had put a lot of goflight controllers in to it and it was the radios that I think I liked the most. They were something I used every flight and were the most difficult to use with a mouse or keyboard.

Helios has been beyond excellent with my current a10 config but I am now thinking about building some real panels again and I am going to start with the ones that are most awkward to use virtually which are the radios.

These panels are just going to be the start, I will produce others in the order that I think is most beneficial to have a real one rather than a virtual one.

As we all know stuff like the UFC are prime contenders.

There are a few caveats though, I am not a rivet counter in this area so I will work off the information I have and not go out of my way to ensure that a panel is a complete replica down to the exact switch, knob, display etc.

What I want to make is something that will lead you to believe that my panel belongs in the a10. If you are used to using the virtual cockpit then you should believe that this panel belongs in there.

For example, the AM radio uses mechanical digits, I will use 7 segment displays laid out in the same format as the a10 panel. Mechanical digits would always be replaced with 7 segment displays or the project becomes too much.

If I can't get knobs that are exactly the same I hope that you only notice that on closer inspection or referencing a photo.

I must admit, I have never liked plugging in a lot of panels in to USB hubs as with the goflight gear so I am looking to create my panels with ethernet interfaces so they can be talked to via tcp/ip. It's quick and easy and you can get a 16 port router for $40 to plug them in to.

I am going to make the electronics somewhat generic so that I can put different faceplates on them. I.e. the radio electronics could also be placed behind a radio panel from a baron 58 etc.

There are a number of things I need to tie down but in the spare time I will get this panel working and go on to the next.

I can't wait until I can tune in my freq's on TARS etc using a real panel :)

For your viewing pleasure here is a10 exporting to one of my development boards. Nothing special but it is the start ;)

FYI I am using a texas instruments cortex M3 chip. When I decide a couple more details of how I want to mount some components I will get a run of custom pcb's made.

One thing I am interested in creating is a standalone CDU with display, also ethernet connected and not using a graphics card port on the pc. I know how to make it all work but I ned the time to tackle it.

Hi Metal.

Can these templates for VHF-AM/FM radios be of any use ? http://www.strandedduckling.com/L10_COMM_All_v0.5.5.pdf

I use Gray encoders for the freq selectors (leftmost is standard rotary though) and 7-segm displays. There's been some minor adjustments made (by hand) to get the pieces together but it ended up rather fine and close to the original. Check the "COMMs" under http://www.strandedduckling.com/html/quad_ref.html for a visual

Got a matching .dxf files and an eagleCAD PCB file for the 7 segm displays (somewhere) if needed. (haven't yet connected the 7Segm to my pit though).

Impressing video, thanks.

Nice work Metal,

i will be surely interesting in your work, keep on the good work :thumbup:.

Hi Metal.

 

Can these templates for VHF-AM/FM radios be of any use ? http://www.strandedduckling.com/L10_COMM_All_v0.5.5.pdf

I use Gray encoders for the freq selectors (leftmost is standard rotary though) and 7-segm displays. There's been some minor adjustments made (by hand) to get the pieces together but it ended up rather fine and close to the original. Check the "COMMs" under http://www.strandedduckling.com/html/quad_ref.html for a visual

 

Got a matching .dxf files and an eagleCAD PCB file for the 7 segm displays (somewhere) if needed. (haven't yet connected the 7Segm to my pit though).

 

Impressing video, thanks.

It would be interesting to know if my model is close to yours. Right now I am using the dds file from the game so once I scale them to the correct size in my CAD program I am using the holes etc from the graphics as references to where I will cut them out.

I am not sure where you got yours from so if they are taken from real sources it would be neat to see how far off I am doing it my way.

I saw some of your pictures, your pit is looking good. I too want the WH throttle to fit nicely with the panels I am making.

I am also using 4 rotary encoders for the radio and a couple of rotary switches for the fixed position ones on the left and right of the panel.

for the preset I will probably also use a rotary encoder and get the laser to cut out the knob for that.

I am giving a bit of thought to my pcb's. At one point I thought about mounting some components like switches to the pcb but if I keep everything panel mounted then I can reuse the same pcb design for most panels. That will save on cost and I can then use headers for wiring harnesses to each unique panel.

Also, like it sounds you have done I will create other pcb's to hold the 7 segment displays as they will not be mounted on the primary pcb.

Nice work Metal,

 

i will be surely interesting in your work, keep on the good work :thumbup:.

Thanks! it's pretty simple at this point but it will grow!

The CNC router has not been ideal for panels but as I am adding a good sized laser (working table size 1500x1200mm) to my workshop I think I can now pursue these ideas again.

very nice. i'm watching this development closley

Allways a struggle between accuracy and function, hehe. The ARC-186 size in 10C is distorted, can't say why but DCS probably had their reasons. The hight is "way" off.

True lightpanel size is 122,6 x 53,6 mm. To get place for the compoment at hand I had to use 122,6 x 57,2 instead and it was a pain to get em to fit within that area :). Cant say about the base hight but it shouldn't be more then 1-1,5 mm higher then the lightpanel

Will be realy intersting to follow your config/setup. Just started to interface/connect my quads to DCS and the coding stuff sure gives me headace :D

Looking nice there. Not having the skills to do stuff like this myself my question is: Will you be offering these for sale? If so I think it would be nice if you were to work with Gadroc on Helios support. I'm already using it for the caution panel and it's always nice to have a single interface to manage stuff like this.

Allways a struggle between accuracy and function, hehe. The ARC-186 size in 10C is distorted, can't say why but DCS probably had their reasons. The hight is "way" off.

 

True lightpanel size is 122,6 x 53,6 mm. To get place for the compoment at hand I had to use 122,6 x 57,2 instead and it was a pain to get em to fit within that area :). Cant say about the base hight but it shouldn't be more then 1-1,5 mm higher then the lightpanel

 

Will be realy intersting to follow your config/setup. Just started to interface/connect my quads to DCS and the coding stuff sure gives me headace :D

Very interesting, I didn't realise it was that different, I need to spend more time in the cockpit forum :)

I am happy to see dimensions thrown about and get drawings from official sources, manuals and in game renders. If they are out and people offer up more accurate information then I will look to include that but as I go on to answer the next post down I will sell these and I do not want to be seen to just 'take' others drawings. I spend considerable amounts of time in various CAD packages so it would not be worthwhile using someone else's drawings when it would save me little time.

I see on your website you are using SIOC. Hopefully that makes the integration for you a bit easier for you. They already have the lua scripts to do the export I think?

I have to tackle everything myself in C code with some lua on the DCS side. After I drop the kids off to school I will explain a little more and answer DEChengst.

Very interesting! Good job!!:thumbup:

Looking nice there. Not having the skills to do stuff like this myself my question is: Will you be offering these for sale? If so I think it would be nice if you were to work with Gadroc on Helios support. I'm already using it for the caution panel and it's always nice to have a single interface to manage stuff like this.

Firstly, it has been 18 years since I have logged on to a DEC Alpha so if you can forgive that I will continue with the answer :)

OK, this is the plan, loosely as it is right now.

I will offer these panels for sale. It may not come in at a cost the people are happy with - or it could, it's yet to be determined.

I am very mindful when talking about selling products about the possibility of getting bogged down for inadequate compensation. That has happened to me with my warthog extender. I liked it so much and others asked that I decided I would sell some and I priced it in an entirely wrong way.

I was offering it to hobbyists and I wanted you guys to have it so I priced it based on what you would pay for it. To be clear, I didn't price it at what is the maximum people would pay for it. I tried to price it as low as I could without it costing me money to make. This meant that I had to make them at odd times and often put it off if the machines were tied up with other work. They gave me headaches at times because a part might be on a machine and I needed the machine for something else but I can't just remove the incomplete piece, I had to finish it before I could use the machine for something else.

Sure, it still cost money but that was my 'contribution' if you could call it that to the community.

To sell panels I need to take a more traditional approach, I don't want to offer a product that has to go on the back burner all the time while more profitable work takes priority so I will have to price it more realistically. That way everyone who is willing to pay will be better off. Better support, better products and low/no waiting times.

I am lucky to have the equipment to design and develop the product end to end (I outsource the pcb's and depending on complexity I get them to also populate all SMD components).

I do the electronics design, the software on the MCU and the PC and the manufacturing. With the new laser I can cut out and engrave over 140 radio's in one job and it's all within my own business. I probably have the best chance of anyone to be able to create these at reasonable costs and in the interests of my own cockpit I don't mind throwing some money here to see what happens.

Now, as to your other questions. Helios is a very good program and unless I replace my entire pit with real panels I will continue to use it.

My hardware will certainly work along side helios but I could not say that helios would support my hardware saving you another piece of software running on your machine.

You may or may not know that Gadroc is also working on his own hardware interface for wiring in panels. I talked with Gadroc early on about this but I never went down that path for a couple of reasons. Not because I didn't agree with how he was doing things but because of different technologies and timeframes. Gadroc is using arduino but I am used to working with MCU's in a more traditional way and Gadroc has to work on this in his timeframes which is entirely understandable but I can't tie myself to other people timeframes.

I plan on making my panels very open to anyone who would want to use them or develop them for use on other simulators. This was one of my big problems with the goflight gear I owned that it was so closed and proprietary with it's interface.

I am not sure their API to this day supports all the panels they sell. On the other hand I want to make it very easy to send and receive information from my panels.

There are two ways I plan on doing this. Letting people talk directly to the panels via tcp/ip to set display values and receive updates from switches etc and the other is to be able to create plugins for a middleware piece of software that will mediate between the simulator and the panels.

I want to be able to reuse as much as I can and this will keep costs down by only having two or three pcb designs that can handle any panel in any aircraft.

This way you can plug in the faceplate to the pcb and tell the pcb what you have plugged in , e.g. an a10 radio or an UFC. I hope by doing this that if there is demand I can more easily create the front panels for a variety of different aircraft.

The MCU's I am using support CAN or controller area network so I will probably have two kinds of boards. One that supports panels without displays, these will not have a usb or ethernet interface but will connect via the can interface to some sort of master. This can save on costs by running a cheaper MCU without ethernet/usb.

So, I will do my best to develop something that is affordable while making enough profit that I can be committed to it. Only time will tell eh? :)

This is great !!!,

Don't wait for "Time" he always wait and have many excuses, try to be one step a ahead :thumbup:

add my name to your waiting list.

what about motion control unit based on Ethernet? (as for phase two)

Avi

First off, excellent work metalnwood! Working with the micro controllers and creating the interfere is a lot of fun. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions about how I got to the internals of DCS for Helios. One thing to keep in mind for using ethernet is the packet overhead for the kind of data we through around. The ethernet tcp/ip headers are probably 10 times the size of the data needed by the panels. While bandwidth is not a problem, when you have 21 panels + 24 gauges updating 10-30 times a second there is a lot of data the micro controllers have to sift through to get to what they really want. May not be a problem, but do some early tests.

This is great !!!,

Don't wait for "Time" he always wait and have many excuses, try to be one step a ahead :thumbup:

add my name to your waiting list.

what about motion control unit based on Ethernet? (as for phase two)

 

Avi

I don't want to derail metal's thread but I feel I must reply to this statement. You should go back and re-read metal's post and re-read it carefully. I specifically only offered a few CMSP panels, priced at a hobby friendly point, for many of the reasons he's listing. I really only cleared enough to buy my own switches and pay for PCB manufacturing and that's assuming you value my time at $0. If I where to price it at a point to "run a business" and make it a very high priority the CMSP would have been closer to $400-$500. Even at that price I would need to sell several per day year round to cover taxes, health care and feed my family. This also doesn't factor in time and money to develop additional products. When I get sick I still have to do my day job, take care of my family and other things. Also when the job that let's me live, have fun and buy the tools I need to do my pit requires me to travel or evening activities there is no option to say no. I was trying to be very transparent to those who had decided to commit money so parts could be ordered. I have not made progress on my pit (the whole reason I'm here) since the holidays mainly because I do focus productive time at home on completing these panels for others. I'm sorry you see those as excuses and feel the need to post statements like that. You ordered a controller board, and if you don't like the scenario I'll gladly refund you the money.

It's amazing how disheartening statements like this can be.

+1

Plus 1 also.

For me it's not a problem if the price is a bit higher as long as it's fair for the amount of work, materials and equipment that go into making it. For me Helios support is a "nice to have". I can live with another piece of software working along side Helios. I'm already using Helios to drive a Phidgets LED board, will be using it for the CMSP panel I bought from Gadroc and I plan on using it to display the instruments. As you'll understand it's important to me that Helios and your solution won't bite each other. If you're taking reservations please put me on the list.

Excellent job!

Metal, please put me on your list as well, if there is such a list. ;o)

I bought your extender last year and i'm still very happy with it.

cheers!

Gadroc, Metalnwood

I'll try to explain myself, its look like my statement was misunderstood, and you really got me wrong (my sense of Homer is not always understood - sorry).

Whenever I can recommend and post a positive feedback commend on your (the big mentors – I have called you guy’s in some other thread) work, I am more than happy to do so.

especially when new members ask for something, and in my state (IL) local forum.

There are only good things I can say on this forum, I have never meant to disrespect anyone. And sorry if it sound like I am.

Whenever someone offers his help I will be the first to thanks him, and if I can help to someone with anything I will do my best like other in this forum.

I have never ask you for status on you work, I know and see the hard work you and Deadman and other spend for this forum.

I am myself father for 3 years old kid and 2 other on the way, so I know that time is worth more than money (and I have no one of them !!!).

I am just glad and like to confirm for Metalnwood that I will be more than appreciate his work and will sure buy and test his product with without a doubt.

I preferred buy and pay to someone from this forum and other forums and not buy it on any Net shop, even if it will cost me more.

And I will keep doing that if I will be allowed, to support any one who offers his products for sell in case I can use it.

Your work and time worth more and for that I am glad to pay for.

This is not the first time, and certainly not the last for me to donate to sites like viperpits and scsimulations for their grate work sharing with others.

Avi :(

hey Avlolga,

Sounds like I was reading that the wrong way. I have no problem with encouraging his work I do as well. Just "always excuses" rubbed the wrong way. I'll let it drop.

Fly on!

:pilotfly:

First off, excellent work metalnwood! Working with the micro controllers and creating the interfere is a lot of fun. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions about how I got to the internals of DCS for Helios. One thing to keep in mind for using ethernet is the packet overhead for the kind of data we through around. The ethernet tcp/ip headers are probably 10 times the size of the data needed by the panels. While bandwidth is not a problem, when you have 21 panels + 24 gauges updating 10-30 times a second there is a lot of data the micro controllers have to sift through to get to what they really want. May not be a problem, but do some early tests.

 

 

When you wake up and your small thread has doubled in size either there is some interest or someone made a juicy remark :)

BTW, what I said was not directed at Gadroc, I have never had to wait on him but it was a generic answer to someones question in which I was just stating I couldn't tie myself to someone else who has different priorities to myself. That would go for anyone of course.

Gadroc, you are right about the potential sizes of the packets although I think with simple panels like I intend to make it will not be a problem. As I cannot keep a physical switch in sync with the virtual cockpit the only information coming from the game will be warning lights and displays which for most of the time are not sending any information.

I understand the flood of data that would be coming down if I was keeping vsi, and other gauges up to date.

At the moment I have not created any middleware so the lua from a10 is broadcasting to the net and the radio is picking it up directly. A lot of software will not do this so I plan to read the a10 data from my other program and distribute to individual panels.

To keep costs down I will probably have master cards similar to you, sioc and others which will then distribute to the daughter cards. This way I can run simple panels off cheaper chips without the built in usb/ethernet etc.

The chips I am using have a hardware implementation of CAN which I plan to use.

The other benefit of using ethernet is that I can run a small webserver on the panel which I think will be invaluable for testing/debugging etc.

You are right, it's fun and stuff like this is a nice diversion when you are putting it to work for something you enjoy, like your hobby.

Only problem right now is that I had a reorganise of workspaces a little while ago and I have just chucked some of my gear on a small patch to get by for now. It's a bit squished but as long as I have at least my oscilloscope, PS, iron, DMM I can get by :) I will need to get another desk before I start to feel cramped though!

I think I may have told you some time ago that I was replacing my old busted scope with a new one.

A scope is usually a scope but I am now having a debounce issue that I shouldn't. I think the encoder is having an issue. Something I could not do on my old scope that was not a storage scope is go back and see how bad that debounce actually was.

Though doing that is just a bit of fun as well as I should really just throw out the encoder and put another in...

Hi metalnwood,

I am new in this forum and found your work more than interesting. You obviously found out all that what I am looking for. The really interesting part is, that you use an Ethernet interface. That really simplifies the usage. The other is, I observed in your video that you changed the frequency in the simulator and it was displayed on your hardware in parallel. Do you read out the values from the simulator engine? If yes, would you share your knowledge how to do it? Or simply give a push to the right direction ?

Regards

Mike

Hi Mike, I have just read this at a time that I can't reply in any detail. Given the timezones so you can start to have a look around before I am awake again do a search for export.lua.

Go to you a10 directory and search for the export.lua file and read the contents. You need to use the lua programming language and if you search in this forum you will find a lot out.

Sorry for the brief reply but it should get you on track.

Hi metalnwood,

that's exactly what I am looking for. Thank you so far. It is a complete different approach compared to FSX, but seems to be more straight.

Regards

Mike