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Using TACAN to find your wingman?


Megagoth1702

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Hey folks. I am currently reading the book Warthog - flying the A-10 in the Gulf War. There is a chapter where they say the pilots used TACAN to find eachother in the low-vis conditions.

 

I tried that with a buddy of mine one day, he was still on the ground starting up his engines, I was in the air. We both went on 20X and did AA T/R, normal TR but neither of us was able to get the signal.

 

Does it even work in the sim? I mean it seems to work in real life if the people wrote about it.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

EDIT: Also a small question which is not worth opening up a new thread. I kind of forgot if they said it in the book or not... But at what altitude did the A-10s usually fly over the atlantic? I read that a few times some of them ended up flying through a storm and I asked myself - why not fly at 15k-22k? Above the weather? Is that too high for the A-10? I mean I just did a test flight, 400miles, 23k, no problem. So I was wondering what altitude the people used to cross over the atlantic or what altitude they use for cruising in general.


Edited by Megagoth1702

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As GG alluded to above, for TACAN Yardstick you need the flight lead and the wingman(men) to select TACAN 63 channels apart from each other. In addition you should be on Y for AA TACAN rather than X.

 

So in your situation one of you (flt lead) would select TACAN AA T/R Channel 20Y, and the other(s) (wingman) would select channel 83Y.

 

And FYI, TACAN yardstick will only give you range in the A-10, not bearing. It's very useful when flying combat formations to check that you're holding the correct distance.

 

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As GG alluded to above, for TACAN Yardstick you need the flight lead and the wingman(men) to select TACAN 63 channels apart from each other. In addition you should be on Y for AA TACAN rather than X.

 

So in your situation one of you (flt lead) would select TACAN AA T/R Channel 20Y, and the other(s) (wingman) would select channel 83Y.

 

And FYI, TACAN yardstick will only give you range in the A-10, not bearing. It's very useful when flying combat formations to check that you're holding the correct distance.

 

What about the tanker? Surely that gives you a bearing doesn't it.

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Yes, but what has the tanker got to do with TACAN yardstick between two or more A-10s?

 

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Oookaaaay... Now I realize that I lack understanding the TACAN system... The difference between X and Y channels seems to be, as far as I learned now, that in Y you don't get the bearing.

 

Ok, let's say FL is on 20Y and his only wingman is on 83Y. What will happen? Will they both get the range between eachother? What if there are more than 2 planes using this?

 

I always thought it's only possible to get tacan working by having the same channel for everybody, like radio. I mean, sure there would be problems with more than 2 planes, but I just thought...

 

Ah well. Too high for me, haha. Unless someone does a baby step explanation. Wikipedia is friggin hard as well.

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Oookaaaay... Now I realize that I lack understanding the TACAN system... The difference between X and Y channels seems to be, as far as I learned now, that in Y you don't get the bearing.

 

Y is used for airborne TCN stations and X for ground stations. At the moment Y doesn't work for tankers, I'll be fixed in an upcoming patch.

 

Ok, let's say FL is on 20Y and his only wingman is on 83Y. What will happen? Will they both get the range between eachother? What if there are more than 2 planes using this?

 

Yes, both aircraft will get range to each other. If there are more planes using it, for example a 4 ship flight, lead would select 20Y and ALL wingmen 83Y. All 3 wingmen would then get range to the flight lead, lead would get range to the closest (and therefore strongest signal).

 

I always thought it's only possible to get tacan working by having the same channel for everybody, like radio. I mean, sure there would be problems with more than 2 planes, but I just thought...

 

TACAN doesn't work like the radio. Each TACAN channel actually uses two frequencies, one for transmit and anther for receive. The reason you need to separate by 63 channels is that when you do this the receive frequency will be the same as the other aircraft's transmission frequency

 

Ah well. Too high for me, haha. Unless someone does a baby step explanation. Wikipedia is friggin hard as well.

 

Is that clear enough? If there is anything else you don't understand or need clarifying ask and I (or someone else) will explain.

 

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Ah, thank you, I get most of it now. 2 frequencies... Now that's interesting, thank you! Stuff makes sense now.

 

So Y and X work the same, the only difference is "use Y for planes, use X for ground"?

 

Is there a way to have TACAN set up for A-10s so it will show bearing AND distance? Just like a tanker's TACAN?

 

Thanks in advance.

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Is there a way to have TACAN set up for A-10s so it will show bearing AND distance? Just like a tanker's TACAN?

 

Nope - the Piggie is not configured for that.

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Roger, thanks.

 

Also a small question which is not worth opening up a new thread. I kind of forgot if they said it in the book or not... But at what altitude did the A-10s usually fly over the atlantic? I read that a few times some of them ended up flying through a storm and I asked myself - why not fly at 15k-22k? Above the weather? Is that too high for the A-10? I mean I just did a test flight, 400miles, 23k, no problem. So I was wondering what altitude the people used to cross over the atlantic or what altitude they use for cruising in general.

 

 

Yeah, still that tiny question about general realistic traveling altitude. Not talking about storms here, just how high the Hogs usually go.

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That would be a flight schedule - ie. you get your -1, figure out the most efficient altitude to fly at. Hogs have done combat sorties at 29000' over Kosovo due to AGL hard deck limitations. Transit altitude may or may not be that high, I don't know - it really depends. If they are transiting while carrying ordnance and in particular a belly tank, I'd expect them to be under their ceiling of about 23000' for those weights.

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Is there a way to have TACAN set up for A-10s so it will show bearing AND distance? Just like a tanker's TACAN?

As mentioned, the hog only does range. From my understanding of how TACAN works, transmitting bearings takes a lot of power and makes a lot of heat, and I think most small planes don't bother with it.

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As mentioned, the hog only does range. From my understanding of how TACAN works, transmitting bearings takes a lot of power and makes a lot of heat, and I think most small planes don't bother with it.

 

...uses a lot of space and adds a lot of weight. The DME part is included more or less for free with the basic DME capablity though. Not only small aircraft skip the bearing capability. In fact, the KC-10 is the exception for including it, as opposed to e g the KC135. The latter isn't exactly your average spam can. :)

 

The difference between X and Y band DME (and the ranging part of a TACAN is a plain old DME) is only the pulse spacings in the signal - a way to double the use of the frequency spectrum. No technical reason to limit airborne use to Y band. However, you want to make sure you're not stepping on land-based navaids.

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  • 11 months later...

Hey guys, this is a very informative thread according to the use of the TACAN system, thank you for the detailed explanations.

I´ve added this Thread to the A-10Cs Tutorial Collection / Aircraft Systems / Navigation System Tutorials, since I consider this a worth fully and informative resource.

 

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Ah, thank you, I get most of it now. 2 frequencies... Now that's interesting, thank you! Stuff makes sense now.

 

So Y and X work the same, the only difference is "use Y for planes, use X for ground"?

 

Is there a way to have TACAN set up for A-10s so it will show bearing AND distance? Just like a tanker's TACAN?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

You can setup your TAD to Hookship your wingman which gives you HUD symbols to direction and location for your wingman. Just TAD SOI, slew TDC over wingman and TDC short. :thumbup:

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  • 10 months later...

X is used primarily, for both air and ground. Y can also be used for air and ground. It doesn't matter at all. The standard is X, so just use X for air to air tacan. If you want a third aircraft to get range distance from the other two, be sure to have that third aircraft set on tacan RECEIVE ONLY.

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Saw your guide. First of all, I would just use X instead of Y, it's the standard.

Also, most of what's in the guide maybe works in DCS (haven't checked it), but it's not realistic since it won't work that way in reality. Any 3rd, 4th, 5th etc aircraft would have to select Air-to-Air TACAN RECEIVE ONLY, like I said before. If you don't do that, the signal would interfere and render all distance measuring going on between the channels unreliable and useless. It's not true that the system just picks the 'strongest signal'. That just doesn't happen.

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Saw your guide. First of all, I would just use X instead of Y, it's the standard.

Also, most of what's in the guide maybe works in DCS (haven't checked it), but it's not realistic since it won't work that way in reality. Any 3rd, 4th, 5th etc aircraft would have to select Air-to-Air TACAN RECEIVE ONLY, like I said before. If you don't do that, the signal would interfere and render all distance measuring going on between the channels unreliable and useless. It's not true that the system just picks the 'strongest signal'. That just doesn't happen.

 

Obviously it's only for DCS, no one claimed it would work real world :doh:.

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There are many areas where DCS does not match reality. Knowing how it really works, or wanting to do things as realistically as possible has little to do with it, you have to work with what can be done in the sim, and also in such a way that people without real world experience and access can learn and understand the material.

 

And frankly 100% accurate AA TACAN procedures isn't high on the list, when compared to weapon delivery and tactics amongst other things.

 

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