Does your Shkval slew around uncontrollably? Report here. The “Crazy Shkval" Problem

IF YOU HAVE THIS PROBLEM, PLEASE REPORT WHAT KIND OF JOYSTICK YOU HAVE, AND WHAT HAT SWITCH YOU HAVE SHKVAL SLEW BOUND TO!

This problem has been around since Black Shark 1. There have been many suggestions, but to my knowledge, no one has ever gotten to the root of the problem. See this post, as an example: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=76825&highlight=crazy+shkval

THE PROBLEM:

Personally, since Black Shark 1, I, and several others in my squad, have occasionally (or often) experienced the problem of the Shkval slewing uncontrollably. I have now experienced it a handful of times in Black Shark 2. However, I’m lucky; last night, one of my squad mates was reduced from a very competent pilot to a swearing, screaming wreck, after every single time he was about to destroy some target, his Shkval would just randomly go “crazy Ivan”, and go slewing off to oblivion. I must say, if I know me, I would have probably been in the same state as he was had it happened to me. The problem is INCREDIBLY annoying.

After this experience, I’d like to try to get to the root of this problem and figure out WTF is going on. First, a detailed description of the problem:

The problem is often occurs like this:

You are in the middle of slewing your Shkval around when suddenly, it will start slewing, AT MAXIMUM SLEW SPEED, off in some random direction. In a matter of seconds, it will reach the Shkval field of regard (FOR) limits, and often, after hitting the field limits, continue slewing along the edge of the FOR. It is almost as if a slew command is stuck. Sometimes, it may switch directions- BUT I AM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS. I certainly think I remember seeing the Shkval switch directions it was slewing, but it could be a false memory- luckily, I do not experience this problem very often.

No matter how much you fight the Shkval with slew commands to stop it, you cannot make this behavior end. At best, by applying counter-slew in the opposite direction the Shkval is attempting to slew, you can make it stop- but the second you release your slew hat, the Shkval will take off again.

There is only one way to stop the Shkval on its wild journey to the edge of its field of regard limits- reset it. After resetting the Shkval, the problem will, at least usually, be fixed. It may be that resetting the Shkval will always fix the behavior, but I don’t see the behavior enough to have a full characterization of it.

I will probably be working on providing you guys with a track here ASAP, unless this problem and the solution is known- but based on my forum searches, this problem has never been tackled by the community. Anyway, this problem, when viewed in a track, is replicated faithfully. If one takes control of the helicopter during the track and tries to slew the Shkval, the problem instantly disappears, and the person playing the track gets full control of the previously-crazy Shkval.

Also please do not suggest that the problem is related to the search mode of the Shkval. I am not some green, total n00b pilot- I know what the Shkval search mode looks like, and how it is activated. Note that the problem is COMPLETELY inconsistent with the Shkval search mode:

The Shkval search mode can be instantly terminated by any HOTAS slew command.

The “crazy Shkval” problem cannot be stopped without a Shkval reset, and even that might not fix it.

The Shkval search mode slews the Shkval slowly.

The “crazy Shkval” problem slews the Shkval at maximum speed.

The Shkval search mode is initiated with a keypress of “o”, the uncage/slew to HMS/other various functions key.

The “crazy Shkval” problem initiates all by itself, while simply trying to slew the Shkval.

The Shkval search mode wouldn’t behave differently on a track replay.

The “crazy Shkval” problem does behave differently on a track replay- you can stop it by simply taking control of the replay and manually commanding a slew.

This is NOT the Shkval slew mode.

Clearly, there appears to be some kind of hardware or software malfunction going on to create this problem. I have a few theories. First, I cannot remember anyone reporting this problem who did not have a Saitek stick. Secondly, I have a gut feeling that the problem may in some way be related to the Saitek mini-stick. My gut feeling is that either the mini-stick is the source of the problem, the mini-stick exacerbates the problem, or the mini-stick is more commonly affected by the problem. BUT that is just my gut feeling, and I could VERY easily be COMPLETELY wrong about this. What I do know is that all Saitek mini-sticks are extremely sh*tty.

Of course, DCS may be at fault, or the way that Saitek and DCS work together could be at fault, or the problem could have NOTHING to do with Saitek at all. I have never seen a proper reporting of this bug and a solution to the problem, so honestly, I have very little hard evidence as to the cause. So it would be great if we could collect more info on it, and get to the root of the problem.

One thing that points to DCS being the cause of the problem, or in some way related to the problem, is that we NEVER saw a "crazy targetting pod" problem in A-10C. It seems that the same pilots who have this problem in Black Shark have no problems whatsoever with HOTAS slew in A-10C. So there's a good chance that Black Shark is related to the problem in some way.

And yes, I will try to get a track of this behavior ASAP. I am lucky enough to hardly be only rarely afflicted by this problem. I only got fed up with it myself after the severely affected squad mate stormed off TS3 in a rage last night. Maybe he will calm enough today to make a track for us. I could certainly make a youtube of it, but the tracks we made last night are too long to post here.

Anyway, MY Shkval slew switch and HOTAS:

Saitek X65F

Shkval slew: Hat switch underneath the thumb on the stick, the main hat switch ("POV Hat 1"? I forget what Saitek calls it).

I don't really use the mini-stick for anything, but I occasionally accidentally touch it.

I had same problem, sometimes still see it from time to time. Especially when I fly very low (quite fast) and try to lock target. If I miss to place gate onto target, it will go crazy like hell moving very fast. Dunno why.... :S Sometimes I lost life due this.

Aside from the Shkval search funktion you should also verify that the range the Shkval is reporting is correct. If I am correct she uses it to determine the slew speed and stabilization angle, so when the range is off and she tries to stabilize, she instead slews violently. Also when the Shkval was following a target she maintains the following mode even if the target is lost. To check if it is a problem that is related to your hardware, it maybe good to eliminate this reason for slewing also.

so long

Mathias

I have had this happen with my HOTAS Warthog slew hat, so it is not isolated to Saitek owners. It happened with my CH Pro Throttle slew stick as well in BS 1.02. I've found the issue more frequent in BS2, but I haven't yet had time to fully customize my controls, especially the curve for the slew hat.

I agree it is the most annoying bug ever! :joystick:

I don't believe this is a hardware problem. I have yet to see it in BS2 though, If you get it in a track I want to see it please.

Nate

I had same problem, sometimes still see it from time to time. Especially when I fly very low (quite fast) and try to lock target. If I miss to place gate onto target, it will go crazy like hell moving very fast. Dunno why.... :S Sometimes I lost life due this.

Well.... since we're looking at hardware, what hardware are you using for Shkval slew?

You are saying that you think it's related to tracking gate size or something? Please elaborate. The sooner we can nail down how this bug works, the sooner we see it disappear for good.

I don't believe this is a hardware problem. I have yet to see it in BS2 though, If you get it in a track I want to see it please.

 

Nate

I think I can get it in a track, but there isn't a way of getting that track to you- the track file is too big. I would be more than willing to try to make a youtube of it for you.

I had same problem, sometimes still see it from time to time. Especially when I fly very low (quite fast) and try to lock target. If I miss to place gate onto target, it will go crazy like hell moving very fast. Dunno why.... :S Sometimes I lost life due this.

sometimes almost the same, BS1 BS102 BS200

shval control either via axes or via keys (Warthog profile)

most often when overshooting target or approaching too fast at min range and max zoom maybe or with high incidence and brutal change of pitch...

my feelings and memory about it...

something to do with FOR limits and lost of sight

I think I can get it in a track, but there isn't a way of getting that track to you- the track file is too big. I would be more than willing to try to make a youtube of it for you.

I know it exists, that doesn't matter. I have to recreate it in the sim to fix it.

Nate

Well.... since we're looking at hardware, what hardware are you using for Shkval slew?

 

You are saying that you think it's related to tracking gate size or something? Please elaborate. The sooner we can nail down how this bug works, the sooner we see it disappear for good.

I use keyboard :)

I know it exists, that doesn't matter. I have to recreate it in the sim to fix it.

 

Nate

It is not easy to re-create it. It doesn't always go "crazy Ivan", overall I tried to recreate it but I couldn't do it in a moment I wanted to. I only know for me mostly appeared during lower flights and higher speeds while trying to lock something (target), when I locked ground (or missed object) "crazy Ivan" showed. Laser marking, distance were correct.

It Sometimes happens in very low level when switching off the laser. It seems to take a imaginary distance point very close to the Helicopter than and moves when the Helicopter moves.

Also it happens when you got a lock to target with distance....than switching laser off(maybe Target is down) and began to early to scan for more Targets.

If you wait a short moment with moving the Shkval it doesnt happen.

I have had this several times, to fix it I just mash the <>;/ keys on the keyboard and the skvhal stops wondering. very annoying tho.

I know it exists, that doesn't matter. I have to recreate it in the sim to fix it.

 

Nate

So if I posted a track of the behavior, it would that not be helpful to you? If I can get it in a track, isn't there something ED can do to analyze the track perhaps? They ought to be able to tell at least if the crazy Shkval slew is a stuck slew command or something else, I would think. But perhaps tracks don't work like I think they do.

There is another Shkval bug I am trying to reproduce as well. I'm hoping to capture them both at some point here.

So if I posted a track of the behavior, it would that not be helpful to you? If I can get it in a track, isn't there something ED can do to analyze the track perhaps? They ought to be able to tell at least if the crazy Shkval slew is a stuck slew command or something else, I would think. But perhaps tracks don't work like I think they do.

 

There is another Shkval bug I am trying to reproduce as well. I'm hoping to capture them both at some point here.

A track would be fantastic, a youtube video is of no help though, that's what I was referring to. Let me know how you get on with it.

Nate

It Sometimes happens in very low level when switching off the laser. It seems to take a imaginary distance point very close to the Helicopter than and moves when the Helicopter moves.

 

Also it happens when you got a lock to target with distance....than switching laser off(maybe Target is down) and began to early to scan for more Targets.

 

If you wait a short moment with moving the Shkval it doesnt happen.

This is what I have been noticing also. If your target is almost at the same altitude as you are then the imaginary ground level that Shkval uses to determine range if you move it while not lasing is going to be very close to your aircraft. A minor user made movement up or down is going to change the estimated distance a lot. When the distance is very small the point the Shkval tries to track is very close to your aircraft and hence a little movement of aircraft translates to a huge LOS change for Shkval which means it has to slew at max speed towards the tracked point in space to keep it in it's sight. As to why the AA mode also uses the imaginary ground plane is beyond me as this problem occurs to me usually only when engaging aerial targets at co-altitude.

And I thought it was just me having this problem! :)

I use X52pro POV hat and experience "crazy Ivan 'shkval issues quite often, however, mroeso in BS2 then BS1. Always thought it was just my setup and the way the sticks send keystrokes.. maybe it goes deeper then that. Will be watching to see if this is resolved.

And I thought it was just me having this problem! :)

 

I use X52pro POV hat and experience "crazy Ivan 'shkval issues quite often, however, mroeso in BS2 then BS1. Always thought it was just my setup and the way the sticks send keystrokes.. maybe it goes deeper then that. Will be watching to see if this is resolved.

When you get the opportunity to make a track of the behavior, DO IT. Don't just wait and watch to see if this is resolved. This bug has been around since BS1, and if we, the community, don't get off our butts and try to do something about it, this bug will be with us indefinitely. It's a rare problem for me, and I have yet to have the opportunity to make a track of it.

Went for a quick flight this morning and my Shkval went nuts on the first couple of targets.

Here is a track, shows the drifting and inaccurate ranges displayed.

(dont laugh at my l33t flying skills :D )

server-20111123-060722.trk

I just about had a track of this the other day, but the track got buggy and the player in question who had the crazy Shkval crashed in the track before the bug occurred :(

bumpity-bump-bump... bump bump

I did have a look to the whole Track.

In Short ... the Proplem isnt the Shkval.:smilewink:

This is normal and i think its a feature.

1. You are moving to much without tracking the Target.

2. You are lasing to much, so your laser Distance finder is going Hot and produces distance issues. Please switch laser off after destroying a gruop or While searching for Targets.

3. Try to manage the size of the target square of the Shkval for better Tracking of Targets.

4. If the Shkval runs out of control switch it off by pressing the Reset Button maybe you also need to switch off the Laser. Find your Target again with the Shkval is more easy than to try to get out of the Shkval Proplem by lasing the whole time.

5. Please next Time Switch the Weapon system to Manual so you can fire about larger Distance than 7.1 km

Its the second switch below Masterarm ^^

Try out i hope i did help.:pilotfly:

Thanks Isegrim, I'll try your tips out over the weekend.

I am more bothered by the stuck Shkval; this is not a feature since it only happens when using the digital buttons to slew the Shkval and not the axes. It is also not a problem with my stick's buttons since it happens from keyboard inputs as well. It can make locking up an air target a lot more difficult.

...In Short ... the Proplem isnt the Shkval.:smilewink:

 

This is normal and i think its a feature.

 

1. You are moving to much without tracking the Target...

I agree with Isegrim.

Sometimes I forget HDG(AP) off or FD AP on. So, although I lock the target and AUTO TURN is on, Ka-50 turns/yaws another direction. Then Shkval seems going crazy.

It's needed that Auto Pilot and Auto Turn must be ON. And of course Ka-50 must be well trimmed.

I have had this happen with my HOTAS Warthog slew hat, so it is not isolated to Saitek owners. It happened with my CH Pro Throttle slew stick as well in BS 1.02. I've found the issue more frequent in BS2

 

I agree it is the most annoying bug ever! :joystick:

As a fairly new use of both BS1 and BS2 , I would have to agree, it is the most annoying bug ever.

Have 80+ hours experience in BS1 and probably about the same or more in BS2, plenty of research in forums, videos, tutorials, etc. Not a rank noob, but quite informed on how to use the chopper, etc.

I to find that it is more prevalent in BS2 than BS1, it has gotten me killed more times that I care to remember, and made me rage quit even more so.

It seems to happen on most missions that have a lot of vehicles and/or heavy scripting that cause my machine to lag out, ie the frame rate dropping bellow 20 FPS.

Blackshark 2, I mostly seem to be fighting chopper most of the time, at 20 fps or less, the controls are just not working smoothly, and you end up over controlling, and that leads the shkval to go crazy also. I have been in perfectly controlled hover with hover engaged and trimmed fine, about to lock target with shkval and shkval just lets go and pulls left or right uncontrollably and chopper pulls hard left or right 90 - 180 degrees to where I had it and was about to target lock.

I assume that is the problem others are talking about.

Joystick is x52 PRO with silver view hat on Joystick component used as slew control.

Shkval mostly works fine, when not in FD mode and with standard AP modes enabled, Auto turn to target on, with Auto Tracking on, with Laser enabled ,HMS and trackir in use for setting target position, slew controls used for fine target aquisition for left, right, up, down and target lock engaged.

When I do all of the same as above with the Shkval, but frame rate goes to 20, 15, 10 FPS during battle, all bets are off, and shkval will do the crazy ivan thing.

Mainly play Co-OP with one other friend, he has same joystick x52 pro and doen't have the issue in general, but he has better computer system with ATI 79xx dual crossfire system and more consistent frame rates that I do, ie 35 - 20 compared to me at 20 - 10 in heavy battles, such as the battle mission and clear Tkvarcheli.

So I believe it is either of the problems that create crazy Ivan syndrome:

Low frame rate under 20FPS

Playing Multiplayer it happens more compared to single player

Crashing or being Shot down and restarting with another chopper will make it happen more.

Will try these theories more, see if I can get solid proof with watching replays later on.

:doh:

ASUS P5QC M/B

Intel 9550 2.8ghz Quad Core

Fatality OCZ 4gb ddr3 ram

Win 7 Ultimate 64bit

ATI 5850 video with 12.x drivers

1tb seagate hdd

Auzentech 7.1 sound card

TrackIR v5

X52 Pro Joystick

Cheers, Ian