SAM evasion practice

Finally after a bunch of attempts I was able to dodge 4 SA3 missiles and then run in to cluster bomb the bastards. :D

All those sorties in my old Flanker and Lomac days all came back to me eventually. What I found out was I had success once I went to Manual CMS mode and handled that myself instead of semi or auto. For some reason in those modes the dang plane kept pumping out flares instead of chaff.

What I did was keep the radar on my 9 and turn into it slowly hoping to get the thing to launch at me at his max range. When the SA3 fired I hit the JMR, pumped chaff and did a split S to now keep him on my 3 and turned slightly to my 4 while pumping out chaff and hitting the JMR again. Both times the SA3 fired off two missiles and one exploded early, one hit the ground, one went ballistic.

I was happy, still have a lot to relearn and learn all over again, but this sim rocks so far.

Anyone else have some experience to share on different SAM's. I love SEAD missions, even if the A10 isn't tasked with those in real life.

Well I don't know if your ECM did much for you if you activated it after he fired. The point is to keep him from getting a good lock on you, and force him to home in on you before being able to fire.

I just pick up speed while forcing the missile to fly at it's max range, usually by diving and keeping it somewhere near the 3/9 line, but not on it. Then when I've depleted most of the missile's energy, turn in and climb, so that the missile has to work against gravity. That should keep the missile from having enough maneuvering energy to change it's angle to compensate for your turn at the same time.

Works most of the time, as long as you have enough time.

I kept turning it on before he fired but it turned itself off all the time. Fact is I wanted him to fire so I could practice evading the missiles to see what it takes to get away. Everytime I turned into the missile I was hit in other sorties so I really got tired of that fast so I tried to angle away instead and had success with that.

Is the JMR supposed to turn off all the time?

Yep, the JMR will switch back into standby mode after successfully breaking a lock. That way he doesn't have enough time to home-in on your jammer.

Very cool! That gives me some ideas, maybe I can kill the bugger before he fires then.

turn in and climb, so that the missile has to work against gravity.

I would recommend descending. You're fighting gravity too, and that missile typically has plenty of kinetic energy to transfer into your relatively puny climb. Try to keep your energy.

I would guess that climbing is better than dropping. The A-10 has much larger wings than a missile, so it should be better at going up than a gliding missile, but at the same time, you do want to keep your speed up so you can make the missile keep turning.

The easiest way is to fly the missile into the ground but that's not always an option due to AAA and IR SAM's. I don't know how effective it would be in the A10 since I've only tried it in F4 but have you tried notching the radar after launch? When I get to missile evasion in the A10 the first thing I will try is notching or beaming whilst at 100% RPM pumping out the chaff in a 5-10 nose down attitude.

@Vincent: If you descend you have the advantage of the thicker air slowing the missile down more if I'm correct?

applying the same knowledge that is used to evade air to air missiles in Flaming Cliffs 2

this is what you do:

Beam it / F pole / hop in the Doppler notch. Has many names but it just means to put the radar or missile on the 3/9 line to maximize the distance and lead it has to pull on you thereby depleting its energy. You do not climb because in a zoom climb the missile will out perform you. That is unless you are on the edge of a SAM envelope where you have the option to escape the envelope before the missile reaches you.

Instead of climbing you dive. Lower altitude has denser air and the missile will slow down much more rapidly than up high. Also the missile will loose speed quicker down low and the speed gained from the missile diving is nothing compared to the energy you gain in the dive that can ultimately be used to outperform it therefore diving is the thing to do. Just make sure your not diving further into the SAM envelope or into another SAM envelope.

the 3/9 line has another purpose. If your distance to the tracking radar remains the same the shift Doppler radars will loose lock. I don't know if SAM radars are Shift Doppler, but it works for planes like MiG29, Su27 and F15

Last thing to do is the break. When the missile is dragged as low on energy as possible you do hard manoeuvres into the missile while pumping chaff/flares

a slightly different tactic you can use is to put the missile at your 6'o clock. full speed and dive for the deck to attempt to outrun the missile, essentially escape the envelope as quick as possible.

Hope this was useful to someone.

I would guess that climbing is better than dropping. The A-10 has much larger wings than a missile, so it should be better at going up than a gliding missile

The A-10 has an engine too, which climbs better than gliders. :P

I usually just pump out flares/chaff while climbing, then roll over and dive right behind the flares/chaff to "hide" behind them... I have had alot of success with this, even before I learned how to use my jammer :P

So what will you do when some industrious soul programs the SAM to only activate when you're well inside the NEZ ... ie where the missile will ALWAYS be able to reach you regardless of what you do? Skirting the edge and letting it waste missiles at ranges longer than it should me is a sim-ism. ;)

^^Yes, for my missions, when dealing with theatre-sized sams, usually deciding where the player SHOULD'NT be, I use a trigger zone about half the size of the engagement range envelope witch the player must enter for the sam's ROE to go weapons free....:-)

^^Yes, for my missions, when dealing with theatre-sized sams, usually deciding where the player SHOULD'NT be, I use a trigger zone about half the size of the engagement range envelope witch the player must enter for the sam's ROE to go weapons free....:-)

LOL, that's just cruel :)

My favourite sam is the Tunguska, once it paints you, you'd better 180 quickly or you're dead.

Nate

I sooooo hate those things after my experiences with those in Black Shark. Just nasty lil buggers.

I sooooo hate those things after my experiences with those in Black Shark. Just nasty lil buggers.

At least the Hogpilots are able to talk about evasion techniques, where Shark pilots would think about their last words :lol:

Zeke, I don't know how much this will help or how much is transferable to the A-10C or even SAM systems but it's worth a shot and it's a good video. The techniques do work effectively, I used to use them in Allied Force.

This is part one of two.

applying the same knowledge that is used to evade air to air missiles in Flaming Cliffs 2

3/9 line is good, but with sam's you can't always notch, since the missiles come from beneath, so you can't hide in the clutter. (only once the missile is above you, you can notch)

3/9 line is good, but with sam's you can't always notch, since the missiles come from beneath, so you can't hide in the clutter. (only once the missile is above you, you can notch)

When the missile is above you isn't it still getting targeting info from the ground radar? Unless it's active homing.

When the missile is above you isn't it still getting targeting info from the ground radar? Unless it's active homing.

Yes, correct, a reason more, you can't just apply 1:1 the A2A evasion tactics.

Yes, correct, a reason more, you can't just apply 1:1 the A2A evasion tactics.

How effective would a 3/9 beam and pumping chaff be against Radar Guided SAM's? Also, does the A-10C have a tight enough turn to perform a last ditch high G turn into the missile if all goes pear shaped? I've managed a highest turn of around 6g's in the A-10 so far, don't know if that's enough.

You never turn INTO the missile if you can help it. Always out of plane. In plane = doom.

You never turn INTO the missile if you can help it. Always out of plane. In plane = doom.

To clarify, I meant turn into it with a nose down attitude at the last second, works in the F16 if it's your last option but I was wondering if it would work in the A-10C. Obviously you would go by the book but there's always the chance that won't work and your in the no escape zone, 4 seconds from impact, you have two options, try the last ditch high g turn or go parachuting.

A video for example:

Note: The guy in the video should have lost the missile well before it got to that point. What worries me is he was pulling 9G's, my experience testing turns in the A-10C got me 6G's at best.

No, you pull away out of plane. Any in-plane turn = doom ;)

Beam it, then pull out of it's plane of motion at the last moment.

Whether this works or not depends on your g available, the missile's speed (and thus its ability to turn) and a few other things I'm sure.

The demonstrated way in your video is not an orthogonal roll, and will not work against a recent missile - it'll get you killed.

Isn't a nose down into the missile out of plane? Check the video if you didn't see it before, I edited it in. By 'into the missile' I mean turn towards it's direction but with your nose down so you won't be heading at it, usually it won't have enough energy to make the turn and it will miss.