Best way to avoid incoming missiles?

Given that there is no terrain masking available and a SAM has just launched what the best avoidance technique?

Scenario 1: When in a hover at SAM launch

Scenario 2: in Fwd flight when SAM is launched

Don't be there when the SAM is launched.

Yes, really. :D

Or have pre-emptive flares out for un-anticipated attacks.

If it's a radar SAM ... sorry, but ... what were you doing there? :)

Personally if I get the call from the wingman:

1-Start to drop flares.

2-Collective down if pitch too high.

3-Nose down around 60-90 degrees at the same time turn 90 degrees from the incoming sam.

4- looking for cover

Usually I don't get hit with that.

Regards

Aser

Don't be there when the SAM is launched.

If it's a radar SAM ... sorry, but ... what were you doing there? :)

You will note that in most of my missions NATO forces will have at least a Hawk site overlooking the battlefield. German forces will often have Roland SAMs in the rear area of the battalion. Radar SAMs are simply a reality of modern warfare and not going where they are often means not taking off :)

My advice to avoide incoming radar missiles: Stay low, though forests do not cover you, the terrain does. Even on relative flat landscape, a small bump might make the difference. Flying low also cuts down the range at wich SAMs will engage you (missile needs more fuel to fly through low, dense air). This will give you more room to operate on the battlefield.

If you have a missile coming in, accelerate and dive for the ground. Sometimes you can maneuver the missile into the ground that way. Fly perpendicular to the missile, I had a couple of Hawks miss even though I didn't do any hard maneuvering (difficulty of targeting low helicopters?).

IR SAMs are easely decoyed with flares if spotted in time. The big challenge is to spot the missle at all. Don't concentrate too much on doing stuff in the cockpit, keep observing outside. Have a wingman in a position where he is safe and can observe launches against you.

General answer: Have a plan.

#1:

You choose a position for a hover, where you can quickly hide, either by dropping down (beware of vortex) or by slipping sideways.

If you hover just because you can see the enemy from there, you've already made the mistake.

#2:

If you're in transit, you've got to constantly scan the area and be aware of possible enemy locations and possible placed to hide. And whatever was said on this board about tactics and modern conflicts, you face enemies with sophisticated equipment, or at least you have to asume it! So you got to stay low and always have a building, hill or at least a riverbed or bridge to bring between you and the enemy.

The trick is to not give them a chance to fire.

Therefore my personal rule is: Above treetop-level = invitation for a kill.

So:

Transit: Always low and fast.

Recon the area: Search for cover, pop up, look around, lock targets and save them or engage them, then quickly change positions.

That's all lessons I learned from LB2. With the more flexible AI, you had to constantly move. If you continued firing from the same position or stayed in the area too long, where you had been detected, you most surely had SAMs closing a circle around you and/or a jet incoming.

As GGTharos mentioned is good info. Flares flares and flares. Lively eyes looking for white smugde of missile trail.

You will note that in most of my missions NATO forces will have at least a Hawk site overlooking the battlefield. German forces will often have Roland SAMs in the rear area of the battalion. Radar SAMs are simply a reality of modern warfare and not going where they are often means not taking off :)

But as I think with choppers are going also SEAD planes to eliminate radar SAMS, not alone helicopters without even rarely RWR against batalions?

As GGTharos mentioned is good info. Flares flares and flares. Lively eyes looking for white smugde of missile trail.

 

 

 

 

 

But as I think with choppers are going also SEAD planes to eliminate radar SAMS, not alone helicopters without even rarely RWR against batalions?

Preemtive flares is a double-edged sword.

Yes, it does defend against IR-missiles you didn't see, but it also attracks a lot of attention, as the AI can see them over larger distances and against human players, it's like putting up a neon-sign with a kill-invitation. :D

But as I think with choppers are going also SEAD planes to eliminate radar SAMS, not alone helicopters without even rarely RWR against batalions?

Yes, but in turn these SEAD planes will face enemy fighters and might not complete their mission. Attaining total air supremancy is of course the goal, but pilots should expect the whole range of enemy defenses. Of course they will suffer high losses, but this is also a reality of "even" warfare. How high losses were the A-10s expected to have in the Fulda Gap, 30% or so of total strenght in the first day? And this was if it went according to plan...

Good old myth of helos not being suited for SEAD-operations.

Funny that 90% of the missions in LB & LB2 were SEAD-missions. :music_whistling:

Not even daring to speak about more recent conflicts around the world. :D

Beaming the missil is also a good proceidure. It's done in BVR fights in jets, it could work in helo too.

That work on putting the missil on your beam ( 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock) and moving at maximum speed, keeping the missil in this position. That way, the missil has a longer distance to travel to get to you and loose energy while manuvering to track you.

If you suplement this technique with getting low to the ground, so your radar and heat signature get mixed with the background noise (ground heat and radar echo) of the ground, you have more chance of surviving that missil.

ECMs deployment are to be used acording to the type of threat.

When engaging SAM site, I take out the tracking radars and other such equipment, so the lunchers, if able to lunch on their own, have less chance of hitting me.

Like it's being said above, having a plan, avoiding too dangerous area and using your wingmans help surviving a SEAD strike.

Does beaming a radar missile work in BS? Rotors are creating a Doppler effect in RL see the below abstract. Can a Heli be targeted and tracked even when it is hovering just a few meters above the ground?

Abstract

A measurement research program was conducted to investigate rotary-wing aircraft Doppler radar signature phenomenology. Results of the data analysis program are presented with regard to classification and identification of a rotary-wing aircraft based on its Doppler radar signature. Using the return from a Doppler radar and appropriate frequency-domain signal-processing techniques, a rotary-wing aircraft's design, such as main rotor configuration (single, twin tandem, twin coaxial, etc.), rotor parity (even/odd), tail rotor configuration (cross, X, star, etc.), and hub configuration (semi-articulated/fully articulated), can be estimated. Target backscatter from the main rotor blades, tail rotor blades, or hub region of the aircraft can be utilized by the modern radar processor for target detection, acquisition, and classification of the aircraft. Configuration and blade feature estimates can further define the helicopter for identification

Publication Date: 12-13 Mar 1991

On page(s): 160-163

Meeting Date: 03/12/1991 - 03/13/1991

Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA

ISBN: 0-87942-629-2

References Cited: 0

INSPEC Accession Number: 3977071

Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/NRC.1991.114751

Current Version Published: 2002-08-06

This is not yet modeled in BS (and not all radars are capable of using this phenomenon either)

Also make sure you enter a mission through mission editor. I don't know if it's cheating (I don't think so, the mission creator should hide any units not wanted to be seen) but I always add high threat targets as a TP before flight. they are the first thing I sneak up and kill.... :megalol:

Beaming a missil is not just about giving the smallest radar cross section, it's the most eficient way of putting distance and maintaining energy for yourself, and making the missil loos it's energy I think.

Since the missil has to manuver to meet you on it's intercept course, and you are just going away from it. Making a simple turn require the missil to turn a lot more to intercept and it has a limited amount of energy.

If the game physic is right, this technique should be better than just trying to outrun it.

And since most SAMs are guided via a ground radar, beaming the missil will eventually put something in between you and the radar source that will affect the missil kill potential.

Beaming a missil is not just about giving the smallest radar cross section, it's the most eficient way of putting distance and maintaining energy for yourself, and making the missil loos it's energy I think.

 

Since the missil has to manuver to meet you on it's intercept course, and you are just going away from it. Making a simple turn require the missil to turn a lot more to intercept and it has a limited amount of energy.

 

If the game physic is right, this technique should be better than just trying to outrun it.

This is all nice for aircraft, but useless for slow helis. Also beaming INCREASES RCS.

And since most SAMs are guided via a ground radar, beaming the missil will eventually put something in between you and the radar source that will affect the missil kill potential.

That is a better way to look at it for helis ;)

I try to find some kind of shelter! House/hills/Buildings what ewer there is to Hide.

Find the target! (In range!) (Open sea! well that is a little bit trickier) ;)

Rise/Lock Target/Flares/Shoot/Missile incoming/Flares/Fall down..One more..Then split ;)

NORMAL but it works pretty darn good ;)

\\\MKC///

Processor : AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5000+ 2.61GHz

Mainboard: ASUS M2N-SLI DELUXE ACPI BIOS Revision 0503

Chipset: nVidia nForce 570 SLI

Physical Memory : 2048 MB DDR2-SDRAM PC2-5300 (333 MHz) - [DDR2-666]

No beaming in a helo, just duck and run and place a heavy screen of countermeasures between you and the missile!

Eject

Given that there is no terrain masking available and a SAM has just launched what the best avoidance technique?

 

Scenario 1: When in a hover at SAM launch

 

Scenario 2: in Fwd flight when SAM is launched

First of all - you drew a launch: You erred in getting too close.........should you survive the encounter, thank your Gaurdian Angel, Recon a wee bit better and Engage from RMAX next time ;)

That said, accounting for the unexpected, in the absence of a detection system apart from the LW, the only way you will detect a launch is Visually.

Vitally important to identify the Threat and respond accordingly.

Hopeless to attempt to spoof a Radar guided threat with Flares, and in the lawnmower your only hope here would be to drag the incomin' missile into the Ground by utilizing the Lead-Pursuit principle applicable to the missile - and even then if you're at altitude to begin with I hasten to add that you're probably toast in a faster time that it takes to read this diatribe, notwithstanding the propensity of the AI to engage at RMAX!

For the I/R SHORAD - Flares are your friend: Programme your dispenser to haemmorhage as much flares in the shortest possible time, ie dispense 'Bundles' at a time and you should be OK, provided again that you spotted the launch timeously. After all - it's better to return home with an empty dispenser than to eject with a Full one :)

While all this advice works right now in Black Shark, I'll post a warning:

One of these days the seekers on those MANPADS (and all heaters in the game, really) will get a code review. When this happens, you might see the same thing happening that happens RL: Once that missile locks on, you can spam loads of flares, but it won't matter one bit.

The reason you use flares pre-emptively is because you want that missile locked on a flare, or the operator to not fire because he's not trusting the missile to lock onto your chopper rathen than a flare.

Spamming flares will help reduce the missile Pk, but not to the degree you see right now in DCS.

This is why you should practice using flares pre-emptively, not re-actively.

 

One of these days the seekers on those MANPADS (and all heaters in the game, really) will get a code review. When this happens, you might see the same thing happening that happens RL: Once that missile locks on, you can spam loads of flares, but it won't matter one bit.

 

The reason you use flares pre-emptively is because you want that missile locked on a flare, or the operator to not fire because he's not trusting the missile to lock onto your chopper rather than a flare.

 

Excellent News :thumbup:

One Question However: Whilst the one parameter will be modelled, ie a more 'effective' seeker, would consideration then be given for the modelling of the parameters you stated, ie the indecision of the MANPAD operator for one?

Does one not run the risk of creating a virtually 'unstoppable/unspoofable' Super-Heater?

Funny that 90% of the missions in LB & LB2 were SEAD-missions. :music_whistling:

The Longbow is an entirely different animal that was obviously designed with hunting RADAR SAM's (and fighting at night) in mind.

With it's above rotor mm wave RADAR coupled with its RWR system and its ability to fire RADAR guided hellfires it can basically sit behind a hill with only its dome exposed and engage targets. Datalinking between helos means that non-longbows can share the data gathered by the longbow's RADAR. It's truly an amazing system that I'd love to fly in a modern sim.

An excellent question - and no, it wouldn't be unsoppable or unspoofable, and there are more parameters to consider than what I mentioned.

As an example, a missile launched at your heli within say, 2km, and you haven't deployed flares pre-emptively, your chances of spoofing it should be realistically low. Same goes for 'good old' A2A fighter combat.

On the other hand, if that heater is launched from farther away and you launch your flares before it gets within a certain distance, there is a good chance the flares and your plane will both appear as the same sort of object (a dot, for example) or at the least the flares can out-shine (pretty literally) and blot out your aircraft from view, and the missile may get spoofed.

Other factors include things like two-color seekers vs. one-color seekers (the latter being relatively spoofable) and release interval timings that could spoof nutating/rosette seekers. It's all pretty complicated.

Then you get the new IIR missiles and then you're just SOL. Unless you shoot a laser in their eye.

And that's the sort of stuff I am hoping ED will model somewhere in the relatively near future. As for AI indecision - hopefully that will go in there as well. Mind you if he launched while you're spamming flares, that missile's Pk should be rather low ;)

The Longbow is an entirely different animal that was obviously designed with hunting RADAR SAM's (and fighting at night) in mind.

Obviously? You jest. The most recent Attack Heli v. SAM exericse in germany showed that Helis that run into a well designed, modern IADS will have an incredibly tough time. In fact, it would appear that they just cannot win. Even LongBows.

That radar can be detected. It is certainly not perfect either, and the MMW hellfire can be spoofed. Also, the MMW hellfire is a NEW addition to the arsenal, and AFAIK, it is in fact still rare - for now the laser hellfires are used.

The LongBow is OBVIOUSLY designed for hunting armor. That is what it does. It is what it is equipped for. Not for hunting SAMs of any sort - that is an exception.

With it's above rotor mm wave RADAR coupled with its RWR system and its ability to fire RADAR guided hellfires it can basically sit behind a hill with only its dome exposed and engage targets. Datalinking between helos means that non-longbows can share the data gathered by the longbow's RADAR. It's truly an amazing system that I'd love to fly in a modern sim.

In a modern sim you'd find out that like anything real, you need to trade something to get something else. Translation: You would find that system way more useful and deadly than what a Ka-50 uses, but you'd probably be talking about its limitations by now - at the least as far as SEAD is concerned ;)

Leave SEAD to the aircraft designed for it ... and do what you're designed to do in that 64D: Blowing up T-xx's.

Need an A10 just Call

When the A-10 is released I'll be orbiting and flying sead, SAM's won't have a prayer!:P