F-5E Armament Upgrade Mod

Hey guys,

Like similar mods I've released for the L-39ZA and M2000C, I'll be releasing a weapons upgrade mod for the F-5E within the next day or so, but this time I want your input! My goal is to expand the aircrafts capabilities in a somewhat realistic manner, so if you are familiar with weapon systems that have been used by export nations that are available in DCS but not a default F-5 weapon, post them here and I will try to include them. Note I cannot enable complex weapons like the Maverick such, so keep it to bombs, rockets, etc.

My mod will include at a minimum:

MER 5 & 6 MK. 82/MK. 82SE racks enabled for all pylons

Twin and triple bomb ejectors enabled for all pylons

Expanded Rocket pod options, and triple racks for FFAR pods

AIM-9M (Testing outboard and wingtip pylons)

R-60 series

R-73

Let me know what you guys want to see!

All but R73 sound logical

All but R73 sound logical

Chinese and Iranian (IIRC) F-5s were equipped with soviet missiles, which is why I was considering R-60 and R-73 series. That would be more for user enjoyment that accuracy of course

Chinese and Iranian (IIRC) F-5s were equipped with soviet missiles, which is why I was considering R-60 and R-73 series. That would be more for user enjoyment that accuracy of course

Ramsey, can you give me the links for the Mirage mod that you made? I couldn't find it anywhere...

Ramsey, can you give me the links for the Mirage mod that you made? I couldn't find it anywhere...

Perhaps I forgot to put it on this forum! I'll get it posted later today

I like the idea of 4 AIM9s. :D

I approve. Looking forward to the link.

Upgraded AIM-9M for wing tips

F-5E Armament Upgrade Mod

I have tried the MER on the wing station - some bombs won't come off the rack. Did you find a way?!

PS: zuni works great! Single pot outboard, dual pod inboard = 24x rockets

It really kind of blows my mind to see how much ordnance hauling capability they removed from the F-5 when they upgraded to the E. Early F-5s could haul 6 sidewinders and MERs on the wings, but I've poured over the F-5E manual and none of those options are available. Seems like such an odd thing to take a step back on..

It really kind of blows my mind to see how much ordnance hauling capability they removed from the F-5 when they upgraded to the E. Early F-5s could haul 6 sidewinders and MERs on the wings, but I've poured over the F-5E manual and none of those options are available. Seems like such an odd thing to take a step back on..

 

When could the F-5A cary 6 Aim-9s? =P.

Source Please since ive found nothing to point towards anything like that.

Atleast for a Standard F-5A variant.

Everything ive found on the F-5A says it was limited to the wingtip mounted Aim-9s just as the F-5E.

And also just because something could be carried in theory (the aircraft could physically mount it on the aircraft and carry it during tests etc)

does not mean it was practical for it to use it.

For example the MERs.

There might be an excellent reason why F-5s did not operate with multiple MERs (like in the photos) that reason being weight and Drag.

The F-5 (and especially F-5A) was borderline underpowered to start with and loading it down with multiple MERs with 5-6 bombs each would have reduced its performance to where it would not be considered Combat Capable.

(as well as the added stress on the airframe)

Same reason why they could only carry the Wingtip Aim-9s.

The Drag from the Wingpylons (especially when using all 4 wing pylons) were significant and while it was acceptable for air-ground duties when performance / agility was not as important (+ the drag and weight of the ordnance itself) the reduced performance caused by the drag was not as acceptable for air-air duties.

Since the penalty on performance caused by the wing pylons (even if they only carried Aim-9s) had a significant effect on its effectiveness in air combat.

So it was decided the performance was more important for air-air combat then the extra missiles were.

And also alot of the armaments we find pictures for (especially when they are in US colors) are just armaments that were tested.

Does not mean they were armaments that were accepted for combat use it just means they tested to see if the aircraft could carry it and how well it did so.

And the fact that many of those armaments then never entered service (or did not carry over to the F-5E) pretty clearly tells us what the conclusion of those tests were.

The reason why upgraded F-5Es can carry more then 2 missiles are due to new lighter and more aerodynamic pylons have been made to reduce the added drag etc to acceptable levels.

Pylons that were not available until around the late 90s or early 2000s.

It really kind of blows my mind to see how much ordnance hauling capability they removed from the F-5 when they upgraded to the E. Early F-5s could haul 6 sidewinders and MERs on the wings, but I've poured over the F-5E manual and none of those options are available. Seems like such an odd thing to take a step back on..

That image only has a single pylon on each wing.

Likely the customers said they wanted more pylons, and were willing to live with less weight per pylon.

It really kind of blows my mind to see how much ordnance hauling capability they removed from the F-5 when they upgraded to the E. Early F-5s could haul 6 sidewinders and MERs on the wings, but I've poured over the F-5E manual and none of those options are available. Seems like such an odd thing to take a step back on..

 

The primary reason for changes like this is reducing stress on the airframe. The secondary reason is tailoring the aircraft for the mission it's to perform. Just because an F-5 can haul 24 mk82s...does it need to? And is one F-5 hauling 24 mk82s better than 2 hauling 12 each.

A great example is the F-15C. They have always been able to haul bombs...but I'm not sure the manuals even discuss that fact because That's not the C models mission.

Sierra

When could the F-5A cary 6 Aim-9s? =P.

 

Source Please since ive found nothing to point towards anything like that.

 

Atleast for a Standard F-5A variant.

 

Everything ive found on the F-5A says it was limited to the wingtip mounted Aim-9s just as the F-5E.

‘Excessive Quantity?’

The quantity of 312 pieces being procured seems to be a bit on the high side as as we will only have 12 FA-50s that I know we will be buying, and if you arm them with the maximum of 6 missiles per aircraft you would only need 72. Even if you factor in some of the other aircraft in our inventory that could carry the Sidewinders like the 3 AS-211s (can carry a maximum of 4 each) that are in flyable condition; The 5 F-5A Freedom Fighters (can carry a maximum of 6 each) that are in storage; Or the 6 Close Air Support (probably can carry a maximum of 2 each) Aircraft that will be bought, and factor in an additional 50% spares for all aircraft, the quantity needed will only be 189, way below the 312 we are buying.

Link

Armament consists of two Pontiac-built M39 20-mm cannon in the upper nose (the F-5F has one M39 cannon, the other having been removed to make room for camera pallets). Each wingtip missile launch rail carries an AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missile (AAM). All variants have one centerline hardpoint and four wing pylons for external stores including AAM, air-to-ground missiles, bombs, gun pods, rocket pods and external fuel tanks.

Link

And while I can't link it, I have an encyclopedia of fighter aircraft which describes the F-5A as being able to mount sidewinders on the wing hardpoints, distinctly referenced apart from the Wing Tip rails.

Link

 

 

 

Link

 

And while I can't link it, I have an encyclopedia of fighter aircraft which describes the F-5A as being able to mount sidewinders on the wing hardpoints, distinctly referenced apart from the Wing Tip rails.

Now what do you think is more likely.

That those 2 sources are correct.

Or that all other sources that stated it was limited to only Aim-9s to the Wingtip Launch rails including Manuals etc are wrong?

Example of a page form a Manual of the F-5As Loadout options.

Now what do you think is more likely.

 

That those 2 sources are correct.

 

Or that all other sources that stated it was limited to only Aim-9s to the Wingtip Launch rails including Manuals etc are wrong?

 

Example of a page form a Manual of the F-5As Loadout options.

I think that the F-5 was sold to quite a few countries who each had their own needs and upgraded the fighter accordingly, and that such upgrades would not appear in the original US manual for when the fighter was built, and that over the course of a fighters life, it will be modified as new capabilities are asked for.

But what do I know right? :doh:

Sure it was possbile they had upgraded later on.

But here i thought we were talking about standard armament issues.

Since was not you argument the following?

It really kind of blows my mind to see how much ordnance hauling capability they removed from the F-5 when they upgraded to the E. Early F-5s could haul 6 sidewinders and MERs on the wings, but I've poured over the F-5E manual and none of those options are available. Seems like such an odd thing to take a step back on..

So if some nations upgraded years later to be able to carry more missiles

(have not found any real info on such upgrades either then those links but they just say numbers no real info on any upgrade or the how / when of it so for me its most likely just Typos or someone unfamiliar with its capabilities guessing it can use 6 air-air missiles because it has 6 weapon carrying pylons)

How does that make going from the F-5A

(that could in all standard configs only carry 2 air-air missiles though its possible some nations could have later upgraded theirs to be able to carry more just like was done with the F-5E)

to the F-5E a step back? and a reduction in hauling ability?

And you even mention the F-5E manual and that you cant see the ability there but then when you see the F-5A manual you disregard that info?

But what do i know right?:doh:

Let me know what you guys want to see!

I would also list Mk20 Rockeye, but on the fact that anyone could stick it on that bird and use it without any modifications. I've never seen one flown strapped into F-5.

Hey guys,

Got busy with running the F-5 Vs MiG 21 match and stream, that is all finished now so I'll turn my attention back to getting a mod working. Had a couple issues in testing but I've gotten MER 5s working on all wing stations

That's good! Do you get a good ripple for the MER5 on the wing stations? I can drop them in single but in ripple they came off asymmetric which makes flying hard ;)

Chinese and Iranian (IIRC) F-5s were equipped with soviet missiles, which is why I was considering R-60 and R-73 series. That would be more for user enjoyment that accuracy of course

I don't think the Chinese ever had the F-5.

While the increased amount of missiles sounds interesting, that it could have carry 6 Air-to-Air Missiles, it doesn't really make sense than in marketing. Why?

F-5 is so cheap that you can buy multiple ones in price of one of others.

Like F-5 costed that 2-2.5 million dollars. A F-16 cost about 14-15 million dollars.

So for one F-16 you got 5-6 units of F-5. And F-5 sortie cost is 20% of what F-16 costs, for same sortie. So you can fly five F-5 instead one F-16.

And now comes to interesting question. How well would F-16 manage to fight against five F-5, when all F-5 has GCI? They simply can overwhelm the F-16 by almost any means with basic tactics and strike on it together if such situation would come. And this has shown times after times in the US aggressors training where F-5 get to beat even more advanced aircrafts as F-14 and F-15 when F-5 pilots knows what to do.

So, why to carry 6 AAM when you can just take two or three F-5 to combat against each one of the enemy aircrafts?

And it is not like more really are required as in dog fight a cannons are as important as missiles? It isn't like the typical DCS Multiplayer situations are anything from the real world, as in real world pilots does not want to take risks for their lives, or that militaries want to lose aircrafts.

In DCS we don't experience at all the G force limits that we should, people easily often pulling higher G, longer and more often than they would in reality. We don't experience the limitation for maneuvers. And we don't have the limitations how to use missiles or so.

So all turns to be in Simulation like piece of cake, and feeling that we should have 6 AAM because some marketing/sales material says so, is just likely only that, without requirement for that in the real world.

So maybe a real air forces came to conclusion that 2x AAM is enough for their operations and likely sorties. The same thing is with the bombs. Instead having one difficult/dangerous to fly aircraft with heavy bomb load, instead send a 2-3. And there is far better change to complete mission when you have 2-3 pilots capable to do the strike simultaneously and faster, and be able to protect themselves as well.

I don't think the Chinese ever had the F-5.

In many places (citing same source?) it is said that Chinese has it.

In many places (citing same source?) it is said that Chinese has it.

Consider the difference between the Republic of China (aka Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (aka China).

Consider the difference between the Republic of China (aka Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (aka China).

This. Taiwan is the one with the F-5.