F15C with 14G overload?

As everyone knows, the Su-27S now has G-limit in DCS due to it's weak structual strength, but on the other hand, F-15C has 14G-overload capability,is it real?

The attachment is the trk file in DCS 1.5.4 update 1.

F15C_14G.trk

F-15s can support high Gs as it have been said in many other threads (12g for a few moments [on a 7.5G rated F-15A], so 14 instantaneous MIGHT be ok to keep on flying before the ground crew kills you). On the other hand, what have been said is that the F-15 should not be able to even generate VERY high G turns, so that might be the problem.

With the latest updates, I think it's safe to say that the Su-27 is much closer to a fully fledged DCS module than the F-15.

If the Eagle is able to sustain higher G force (yet to be proven), then it shouldn't be able to do it repeatedly with total impunity so the least that needs to be done is to make it suffer structural damage if abused repeatedly and/or past a certain limit.

Hey! We already have hydro-fails to cope with ;)

Seriously though, I dream of structural damages that build up over stress like the 27's wings.

If the Eagle is able to sustain higher G force (yet to be proven),

Proven by real life already.

then it shouldn't be able to do it repeatedly with total impunity so the least that needs to be done is to make it suffer structural damage if abused repeatedly and/or past a certain limit.

14g is too much, but in any case, all of this will come in good time.

(I've also put in a bug to remove the hudraulic failures or model the hydro system more correctly).

The F-15 is designed to withstand 13.5gs anything above and you seriously risk the possibility of warping your airframe and eventual structural failure (at higher g-loads).

The 9g restriction is only to guarantee the life time of the airframe, and above 9g all bets are off, and the aircraft must undergo several tests to make sure that the aircraft has not taken any damage (such as warping or limited structural failure).

Any engineer designs a safety margin in to their aircraft or for a matter of fact anything, your table that can hold 100lbs was probably designed to carry 130lbs and the 100bar tank at the oil-refinery probably 270bar.

Though the structural strength is eventually compromised by fatigue, so a young aircraft can handle more than an old and brittle one (this is why airframes have designed lifetimes).

So for a young F-15 the 14gs shouldn't be a big problem, they just eat lots of airframe life.

But for a older and more brittle F-15, 14gs may be a serious issue with potential for a catastrophic failure.

P.S. I forgot:

Tthe weight of the aircraft and the weight of the stores heavily influence potential warping and failure

There's no example of an eagle pulling more than 12.5g, and when it did pull that g, the airframe did warp.

Proven by real life already.

 

Actually it can do it repeatedly with impunity - the question is 'how much'? Not 'can it?'.

 

14g is too much, but in any case, all of this will come in good time.

 

(I've also put in a bug to remove the hudraulic failures or model the hydro system more correctly).

That's what was meant in my post, the in game Eagle pulls way too many G's without suffering the consequences like the Flanker does, hence it needs a urgent update in this regard.

I think your love for the F-15 makes you often rush your answers a bit whenever she's pointed out.

I disagree about the ''urgent'' part. I (and the vast majority of other pilots) never go beyond 10, MAYBE 11G as higher you'll just bleed you're speed as a madman and its pointeless. I think there's much more important right now since 1.5.4. Also, it was quite important for the flanker as the s key brought you at Gs that would make you blind even if it was for short and kept you conscious, while in the 15, you get away from realty by a few Gs which would generally just give the ground crew a hassle. (as I said, you rarely see eagles pulling 12+G in actual fights)

As everyone knows, the Su-27S now has G-limit in DCS due to it's weak structual strength, but on the other hand, F-15C has 14G-overload capability,is it real?

The attachment is the trk file in DCS 1.5.4 update 1.

So you pulled 14g for a fraction of a second and did 9+ sustained for about 3 seconds.

That seems realistic enough.

IRL, F-15 pulled 12g (in a conversion on a MiG-25, dogfight, so probably sustained for a few seconds) in combat and was *fine*, maybe some G-hours came off the jet, but the jet was fine and AFAIK continued to fly combat sorties.

That's what was meant in my post, the in game Eagle pulls way too many G's without suffering the consequences like the Flanker does, hence it needs a urgent update in this regard.

Not really.

Flankers pulled 40+ G without consequences.

Eagles can pull 13-18 if you act like a complete "delta alpha", you need LOADS of rudder at high G and transonic speeds to do that. That's not even mentioning the configuration requirements of the jet to do that. Its also been hinted to by "certain people" that you might not even have the hydraulic pressure to pull this 12G stuff in some/most regimes.

In the Flanker, I could hit the wheel brake (disable AOA limits) or enable direct control and overload the jet...Overloading in that bird gave me this ridiculous capability to out-rate the bandit and snap/Archer his 'cans. The wheel brake thing is/was fairly realistic besides the fact that it was easy to abuse (13g in a loaded Flanker...*facepalm*)

Bottom line, overload in a Flanker was extremely useful and VERY EASY to abuse. Overload in an Eagle is NOT useful and very HARD to abuse, if its even possible.

There's no example of an eagle pulling more than 12.5g, and when it did pull that g, the airframe did warp.

^Sustained 12g in the worst region for it.

The Flanker issues with Direct Control are history and everyone is glad it has been sorted out.

Also, nobody said overload in the F-15 is as severe as it was for the Flanker. Nonetheless, it is exploitable to some degree, especially in BFM so it needs attention.

Nonetheless, it is exploitable to some degree, especially in BFM so it needs attention.

Not sure I agree, but I'll let BST/ED decide. :thumbup:

Not sure I agree, but I'll let BST/ED decide. :thumbup:

At least in theory you can exploit the over-g to defeat missiles at close range. The rule of thumb is that a missile has to pull around 3x the g its target is pulling to have a good chance of hitting, so going from the eagle's realistic 12.5g (missile must pull 37.5g) to the less realistic 14g (missile must pull 42g) might make a difference in a dogfight.

But than u start the fight G-loc

But than u start the fight G-loc

That's why I said 'in theory' rather than 'in practice'. :smartass:

Sorry, but you guys are "nuts" (:lol:) if you think there will not be any issues or 15 can easily handle G-loads close to the teens. If you over-G the jet beyond a level 1, there is so much work that needs to be done to return the jet to service.

What about FCS limitation in all planes with FBW?

Actually the current situation mostly affects BVR where Eagles can fly max performance carefree while Flankers need to watch out how much G they can pull.

However, surely this matter isn't urgent, since the Flanker had the 20+ G advantage for a significant time. That has been removed, and it is good!

With the latest updates, I think it's safe to say that the Su-27 is much closer to a fully fledged DCS module than the F-15.

 

If the Eagle is able to sustain higher G force (yet to be proven), then it shouldn't be able to do it repeatedly with total impunity so the least that needs to be done is to make it suffer structural damage if abused repeatedly and/or past a certain limit.

Sorry, but you guys are "nuts" (:lol:) if you think there will not be any issues or 15 can easily handle G-loads close to the teens. If you over-G the jet beyond a level 1, there is so much work that needs to be done to return the jet to service.

Not much else needs to be said.

Does it stop you from operating the aircraft in the air?

If not, it's irrelevant to the sim.

Sorry, but you guys are "nuts" (:lol:) if you think there will not be any issues or 15 can easily handle G-loads close to the teens. If you over-G the jet beyond a level 1, there is so much work that needs to be done to return the jet to service.

Sorry, but you guys are "nuts" (:lol:) if you think there will not be any issues or 15 can easily handle G-loads close to the teens. If you over-G the jet beyond a level 1, there is so much work that needs to be done to return the jet to service.

Mild overloads are more damaging to the crew chiefs than the airframe :megalol:

In all seriousness, this has been discussed extensively elsewhere. I posted some of the OWS details I have. There are some situations where the airframe couldn't withstand a small overload such as a rolling pull-out, basically whenever the airframe is loaded asymmetrically. The other "danger zone quote is the transonic region where it becomes very easy to over G the jet. The F-15 wing went through a slight redesign during development. This was due to excessive wing loading and buffet in the transonic region. I have some charts I'll post later of flight test points that show 9G was exceeded far more than the McAir engineers wanted it to be.

There's data out there it was exceeded regularly in actual use, never mind testing.

This is an old dicussion and yes, is proved that the F-15 can withstand a 14G overload, the argument was with what weight in the wings? And we prove (video below) that in DCS can overload 14.5G with full ammo and fuel tanks!! which is impossible, we already did the maths with DarkFire in other post.

DuUQ6Oq7xoM

Does it stop you from operating the aircraft in the air?

 

If not, it's irrelevant to the sim.

Pulling +14g with stores all day long in the sim like it's nothing is quite relevant.

Edit: as above..

All day long being about 0.01s... Youtube isn't precisefull enough to time it propery. Also, in combat this has zero practical application : GG you pulled during what? 2sec. of hard Gs and are now stalled out for the fight to come.

Besides, anyone who brings 3 bags out of blue flag should just loose their wings at all time lol.