Jump to content

Communications with airfields during WWII


Racoon

Recommended Posts

  • ED Team

Looking for information about air-to-ground radio communications with airfields for both sides (Allies/Germany) during WWII. What kind of requests were in use, etc.

I'll be very appreciated for any help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Were the two mutually exclusive? IIRC, RAF fighter pilots were vectored (via voice comms) from ground control to intercept enemy aircraft.

 

From a wartime RAF perspective, if you are after ATC procedures then AP3024 might be what you are looking for. I don't have a copy of that volume myself though, sorry.

 

Let me check what I do have though...

My *new* AV-8B sim-pit build thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3901589

 

The old Spitfire sim-pit build thread circa '16/17:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143452

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As technology advanced through out the was so did the radio systems with VHF radio coming in in time for the Battle of Britain

 

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/spitfire-masts-and-aerials.html

 

 

Oh and don't forget to collect your homing pigeon too...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/80/a2401480.shtml

 

Before take-off we were told to collect a Homing Pigeon, "just give him a ride." We duly reported to the Pigeoneer who selected our pigeon. The chosen bird was immediately replaced in his cage, with his mate in full view, giving him ample incentive to return home at the first opportunity! We didn't have to wait long!

 

 

Some more info, including links to war time film, on radio operation by VMARS.

http://www.vmars.org.uk/Film_Recordings

 

Alicatt, GM6JWF


Edited by Alicatt

Sons of Dogs, Come Eat Flesh

Clan Cameron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes.... But for the wrong octane. We'll want the figures upped a bit if we want a properly modeled 1944 pigeon.

 

:megalol:

 

(You've been here before, haven't you? :music_whistling:)

My *new* AV-8B sim-pit build thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3901589

 

The old Spitfire sim-pit build thread circa '16/17:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143452

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This from page 222 of a book named Wing Leader, Jonnie Johnson by Penguin Books:

 

'Greycap to Kenway. Airborne with twelve Spits. What's the form?'

 

'Kenway to Greycap. Bandits active five miles south of Caen at low level. Please investigate.'

 

'Greycap to Kenway. Roger. Any definite height on bandits?'

 

'Kenway to Greycap. No, but they're below 5,000 feet. Out.'

 

Note: 'Greycap' is Wing Commander 'Johnnie' Johnson, having just taken off in Normandy leading a squadron of 2nd TAF Spitfire Mk IX aircraft of the Canadian Wing.

'Kenway' is 83 Groups forward mobile Group Control Centre 483, callsign Kenway.

 

This from page 156 of the same book:

 

'Greycap from Grass-seed. Twenty plus bandits climbing up inland. Steer 140.'

'Greycap. Bandits have crossed below you at 15,000 feet. Port on to 310. Buster.'

'Greycap. Bandits now seven miles ahead. 5,000 feet below. Gate.'

'Greycap. Another strong formation of bandits behind you. About eight miles. Exercise caution.'

 

Jonnie goes on to write: “Then I saw our quarry. One bunch of twelve 190s just below us and a mile ahead, and a further bunch of twelve 190s well out on the starboard side. It was a golden opportunity not to miss. Height, sun and surprise in our favour...”

 

Note: The situation on the first message from Grass-seed is that his Canadian Wing of Spitfires Mk IX aircraft had just crossed the French coast just south of Le Touquet at 24,000 feet, having taken off from England on a mission to France. 'Grass-seed' is the senior controller of a radar station in England.

'Buster' means to fly as fast as possible and 'Gate' is the next level up meaning to apply maximum power (throttle fully forward through the 'gated' extra emergency boost power level, as in maximum possible boost power for the aircraft).

Bell_UH-1 side.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
Are you looking for the dialogue that was exchanged between the two more than the equipment used?

 

Exactly.

For example: we're not sure that such thing like request for taxiing was in use via radio that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

probably not that helpful, as you only hear a little radio coms but thought I would add it anyway

 

US Navy tower ATC ww2

 

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

Informative video Bignewy!

the question is: were all these communications with ALGs in Normandy? The place is tight so you can be in between from 3 to 5 airfields in the moment.

One more interesting question: were signal flares in use as signal to send a squadron to air?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly.

For example: we're not sure that such thing like request for taxiing was in use via radio that time.

 

Some time ago I saw a documentary video linked from the forum of some group playing 8th Airforce IIRC. The video was showing basically how a bomber squadron organized itself for takeoff. I don't remember all the details, but much of what went on was SOP (Standard Operational Procedure). The order in which the B-17s would line up and take off was determined in the mission briefing, and depended on how they would form up in the air. So it was pretty much predetermined.

 

I don't recall them showing the use of radio communications to guide the aircraft to the runway, but IIRC there were at least marshals controlling their taxiing, because the bombers were not simply taxiing off a straight line of parked aircraft, especially because they started from, more or less, dispersed positions. So there was definitely traffic control on the ground taking place.

 

But I'm also not sure how the pilots were controlled, by radio or marshal or both, as to when the entered the runway and started their take offs, but they were definitely guided.

 

With fighter squadrons, I don't imagine it would be different. Aircraft start at dispersed locations and have to be marshaled to the runway in a specific order for them to form up orderly once they've taken off.

 

In DCS other, than in missions that are set up with all aircraft on the ground, much of this will not really be necessary. In fact, in missions in which you might join an MP server in the middle of the mission, you might be the only AC on the field at a given time, but not necessarily.

 

IF several players players do wish to fly as a flight, they would have to be organize as a flight, so that they could take off together--close to each other in time, either one after the other or in pairs--. This means--given an AI ATC--the ATC would have to know that these AC are to be handled as a group, and that they would have to, at some point in time, have priority to taxi to the runway and take off, which means they would have to register with the ATC as a flight.

 

Maybe simply having the slot selection roster be organized into 4 AC flights, or better, them being able to organize themselves into a flight while selecting a slot. Many games do something similar to this. When you join one side on a server, you either join a squad or play without belonging to a squad. So, one player could initiate a flight, and others could join it. The flight might determine their call-signs, or the initiator of the flight might be able to choose a call sign form a list of free call signs. The position in the flight would determine each pilot's call sign. The flight leader might be 'Springfield 1-1'; the nr 2 'Springfield 1-2' etc; or just 'Springfield 1', 'Springfield 2'. Pilots not in a flight might simply be give a call sign like 'Rouge 1' though 'Rouge x'. Spawn points might also be determined by the flight, and flights might determine which skin all AC use.

 

No AC should leave their spawn points without permission from the ATC, including 'rouges'. Once a flight--or rouge--is ready to move off of their spawn positions, the flight leader would call ATC and request to taxi to the runway. This would allow the AI to do a simple organizing of when which taxiways are used by whom, so that flights don't get broken up by rouges cutting in.

 

How to deal with pilots not following the ATC is another question. Maybe simply bombarding them with voice messages that they are not following orders; minus points on the scoreboard; warnings followed by a kick from the server; all of the above.

 

There is also the question of taking off from not on the runway, either from a taxiway or from the grass; not seldom seen, especially in emergency situations, or from rowdy pilots.

 

ATC would also have to control who uses the runway for landing at what time, also prioritizing emergency landings from damaged AC, which also begs the question of what to do about wrecks on the runway.

 

So, those are some of my thoughts on the subject. Hope this helps some.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Informative video Bignewy!

the question is: were all these communications with ALGs in Normandy? The place is tight so you can be in between from 3 to 5 airfields in the moment.

One more interesting question: were signal flares in use as signal to send a squadron to air?

 

Yes regarding signal flares. For example, in the same book I mentioned above, again on page 222, Johnnie Johnson is sitting at readiness with a squadron of Spitfire Mk IX aircraft (Canadian Wing) on the airfield in Normandy prepared for a quick scramble. He writes the following:

 

"After half an hour in the cockpit, gloved and masked ready for immediate take-off, I was rather drowsy as a result of lack of sleep, but my cramped uncomfortable position sufficed to keep me awake. Suddenly a red Very light (flare) soared into the air from the orchard. Switches on, my fingers pressed the starting button and my Merlin roared into life. Then I was travelling down the narrow taxi track and made the right angled turn on to the steel-planked runway at too high a speed, for the starboard wing tilted down at a dangerous angle. A few seconds later and twelve of us were airborne in a ragged, straggling gaggle, but the boys were already picking up their battle formation."

Bell_UH-1 side.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Talisman.

Would be great to know what radio communications could be in a time from 0:28 to 0:58 in your movie.

 

I don't know for sure, but I believe that this was all practised as part of a squadron scramble to get into the air at maximum speed and no more instructions were needed, as it was part of the drill for scramble. If not a squadron scramble, but one or a couple of aircraft taking off together less urgently, it is highly likely that more was said over the radio for taxi and take off clearance.


Edited by 56RAF_Talisman

Bell_UH-1 side.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

First of all we need correct communication system. Especially for ALGs. I'm sure there were correct communications with control tower at big airfields. But what about airfileds with traffic control like these.

B3-144wing-10june44.jpg

 

stpierre2.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
I don't know for sure, but I believe that this was all practised as part of a squadron scramble to get into the air at maximum speed and no more instructions were needed, as it was part of the drill for scramble. If not a squadron scramble, but one or a couple of aircraft taking off together less urgently, it is highly likely that more was said over the radio for taxi and take off clearance.

 

Yes. Your previous quotation from the book confirms that. Thank you once more!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...