My kickstarter is live!!! MiG-21bis main powerpanel

Hi guys,

 

My Crowdfunding campaign for a MiG-21bis Main Powerpanel is live.

Its a custom panel resembling the DCS: MiG-21bis’ cockpit. Unfortunately for us we dont have access to a real MiG-21bis so its a bit of creative guesswork however we are confident that you will like it. The panel is built using open Open Source Arduino’s and the DCS-BIOS interface.

 

Choose the option "Back this Project".

 

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Edited June 4, 2016 by pappavis

For the curious, here's a link to the kickstarter project page that avoids this forum's auto-embedding feature.

 

Please don't call DCS-BIOS "plug and play". It is not. The TM Warthog is "plug and play" with the A-10C in DCS: World -- the user plugs it in, starts DCS, and it works. A preprogrammed Arduino board is not "plug and play", even if we assume DCS-BIOS is already installed (which may require manual editing of Export.lua and messing with firewall rules). The user will have to learn about serial ports, find out which COM port the Arduino Nano is connected to, edit a batch file, manually run that every time he starts DCS, and even if it works once it may break again later because Windows decides to change the COM port number.

 

I encourage the use of DCS-BIOS in products like this, but I'd like to avoid setting false expectations. DCS-BIOS is far from the point where the user doesn't have to learn about its inner workings to use it. It is also still at the "proof-of-concept" phase and everything is subject to change in the future, so the sketch on that Arduino may require multiple updates if you want that panel to continue working years from now.

. Unfortunately for us we dont have access to a real MiG-21bis so its a bit of creative guesswork however we are confident that you will like it.

 

Between the pit modeled in DCS and the tons of available pictures what information you needed and couldn't get? On this very board we have member that has real 21bis cockpit in his garage: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2394525&postcount=78 Not sure how active he is today but chances are pictures can be requested (not sure he speaks english, lt me know if you need translator).

Hoi Ian.

 

THANX. You made it possible. I wouldnt start on cockpits without your DCS-BIOS.

 

I am aware of the intracacies of Plug & Play, COM-ports, firewalls etc. The code for this board will be open source, so any1 who buys it can experiment on his own time. Therfore firewalls etc etc is kinda own responsibilities.

 

FYI gr8 chance that this Kickstarter is gonna cost me €'s. (Dont tell my wife!!) :helpsmilie:. The board is sold at costprice. Hackable. Its open source.

 

Sum1 might even change it to use on Ka-50. Who knows :P. There are really prof pitbuilders out there, maybe they take up on this and also do Kickstarters?

 

The €5 pledges;

* for affording PCB copper prototype boards (costing €3 per piece).

* To expensive drill bits for my CNC Machine. 1 copper PCB board consumes >=2 drillbits!

* investing into Arduino Nano's.

* buying buttons, switches for prototyping etc etc

* and.. a beermoney for Ian, Leatherneck, ED and myself.

 

Ian is beermoney safe from the taxman? :P :P

Guys, please press that 'back this project'-button :music_whistling:.

 

 

regards,

Michiel Erasmus aka 159th_pappavis.

 

 

Ian;2800793']For the curious' date=' here's a link to the kickstarter project page that avoids this forum's auto-embedding feature.

 

Please don't call DCS-BIOS "plug and play". It is not. The TM Warthog is "plug and play" with the A-10C in DCS: World -- the user plugs it in, starts DCS, and it works. A preprogrammed Arduino board is not "plug and play", even if we assume DCS-BIOS is already installed (which may require manual editing of Export.lua and messing with firewall rules). The user will have to learn about serial ports, find out which COM port the Arduino Nano is connected to, edit a batch file, manually run that every time he starts DCS, and even if it works once it may break again later because Windows decides to change the COM port number.

 

I encourage the use of DCS-BIOS in products like this, but I'd like to avoid setting false expectations. DCS-BIOS is far from the point where the user doesn't have to learn about its inner workings to use it. It is also still at the "proof-of-concept" phase and everything is subject to change in the future, so the sketch on that Arduino may require multiple updates if you want that panel to continue working years from now.

My kickstarter is live!!! MiG-21bis main powerpanel

 

Main thread HERE --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2801075#post2801075

 

Hi guys,

 

My Crowdfunding campaign for a MiG-21bis Main Powerpanel is live.

Its a custom panel resembling the DCS: MiG-21bis’ cockpit. The panel is built using open Open Source Arduino’s and the DCS-BIOS interface.

 

[ame=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1793317350/mig-21bis-main-powerpanel-for-dcs-world]Kickstarter project page[/ame]

 

Choose the option "Back this Project". Even a €5 contribution helps!!

Best of luck with this :thumbup:

I am aware of the intracacies of Plug & Play, COM-ports, firewalls etc.

You are, but someone who just reads through your Kickstarter campaign page isn't. You make it sound like they don't have to learn about these things, it even has "plug and play" in the project name!

 

The code for this board will be open source, so any1 who buys it can experiment on his own time. Therfore firewalls etc etc is kinda own responsibilities.

Nothing wrong with that, but if you advertise "plug and play" those things become your responsibility.

 

 

The €5 pledges;

* for affording PCB copper prototype boards (costing €3 per piece).

* To expensive drill bits for my CNC Machine. 1 copper PCB board consumes >=2 drillbits!

* investing into Arduino Nano's.

* buying buttons, switches for prototyping etc etc

* and.. a beermoney for Ian, Leatherneck, ED and myself.

I admit I don't know much about CNC machines, but I think if you break two or more drill bits while milling a single copper clad board, you are doing something wrong.

 

Ian is beermoney safe from the taxman? :P :P

It can be made safe from the taxman, but the amount of paperwork required to do this is not worth it.

 

Guys, please press that 'back this project'-button :music_whistling:.

Why? To save money compared to building myself?

 

Arduino Nano (including the USB cable) for $2.48

20 toggle switches for $6.26

10 potentiometers for $2.90

10 potentiometer knobs for $0.88

10x MAX487CPA for $1.20

 

That's all of the neccessary components for $13.72, which is about $11.28 below your kit price. That still doesn't include the PCB, which will be about $30 shipped for 5 pieces, but if we are not going for accurate dimensions anyway I might as well build it on Veroboard.

 

I don't think your kit price is too high, but I do think that to compete with DIY, you will have to offer something that I can't build myself for less with components to spare afterwards. Maybe offer a custom CNC-engraved faceplate or something.

 

The other possible reason to back your kickstarter is to help you start your business, in case I am interested in your future products. To do that, you'd have to convince me that you will be able to achieve your goals, i.e. that you know what you are doing.

 

You seem to be a business analyst who is just getting started with electronics. Nothing wrong with that, but being able to build a basic panel and being able to bring an electronics product to market are two very different things.

 

There is no information at all about the other guy's (Lodewijk) qualifications.

 

The domain that you have printed on the silkscreen of your board is not even registered. Do you have so little faith in your own success that you are not willing to invest the small fee for a one year domain registration?

 

You also did not address any of my previous comments regarding regulatory compliance. Yes, you can ignore all of those and hope for the best, and it will probably work, but if that's your plan you should add "might get sued into oblivion" and "product may be held and/or destroyed by customs due to lack of CE certification" to the "Risks and challenges" section on your kickstarter page.

 

And then there is the part about helping kids in Africa that just made me go WTF? You won't help anyone by teaching them about "electronics and flight simulators", because there is no money to be made there. The market is just too small.

 

Consider this: Saitek is certainly using mass production for their switch panel, and at about 120 Euros it's still considered expensive by a lot of people. They are targeting the market of all FSX users. Projects like yours are targeting a subset of DCS users that fly a particular airframe. You won't be able to bring the price down through mass production.

Hi Ian.

 

I hope to answer all your questions.

Its immoral, wrong to earn money off the backs of ppl like yourself.

 

Flightsim cockpits is exclusive to serious skilled ppl. I whish to close that gap. More ppl can have fun. More ppl can enjoy the MiG-21bis.

 

1. Plug-n-play.

Recently i bought a HTC Vive. Its no plug-n-play. Only 1 controller works wirelessly. Sumting with my USB chipset. Disappointed? Yes. Enjoying my vive? YES :).

 

2. Starting a business? Currently with 3x backers? :megalol:.

Depends. I wanna help a school in ZA. THose ppl are in dispair, they need help. I am from ZA too. I am in a fortunate position to help. Therefore yes.. I whish to kickstart sumthing which in long-term leads to oppertunities for families in South Africa. So yes.. a business. Is my kickstarter a bad idea? I am open for suggestions.

In a small way, we can help bring more stability and happiness to the world.

The donations will be explained below.

 

3. Experience.

Its a learning experience on how to work offshored, distributed teams and have happy users.

I have to do it, handle everything that comes at me.

Hopefully other guys here on the ED forums will pickup on this idea, and start working together. Theres great talent here. Who knows spinoff 'officially supported by Eagle Dynamics' maybe possible.

 

4. DCS-BIOS.

I am grateful to u. Without YOUR effort, none of this will happen. And the guy who made the MiG-21bis LUA-code. I owe you both THANKS for what u r doing for the dcs simpit community.

 

5. CE-validation etc.

Its open source. If suc6full i will put the designs + codes on GitHub, so any1 can download the KiCAD sources, and make the boards themselves. Hopefully the lawyers will be easy on me.

 

6. Cost price €15,30 excl. VAT taxes.

breakdown of costprice;

11x SPDT switches = €8,25

1x PCB board = €1

1x Arduino Nano = €4

1x Max487 chip = €0,30

3x header thingys = €1,75

 

Why is my asking price €25?

1. To handle returns. If sum1 by accident receives a faulty/non working part. I can replace it. Hope this never happens!

2. To calculate for tax or stuff which i forgot, or didnt add.

3. Unlike software the physical Hardware isnt free.

4. I needed to buy a CNC machine, switches, cables etc etc. THose arent free. In a small way it affords several burnt Arduino's, broken PCBs, broken drillbits.

 

The amount which i ask to raise is ridiculous low. 3x backers aint gonna cut it. Going out to an evening sushi with my wife + kid costs €110. Even if i raise just the bare minimum.. the balance will be used to afford arduino's, PCBs and 'beermoney' ;).

 

Life isnt free. My rent isnt paid for me. I whish it was. I would very much like to share.. minding the taxman etc.

 

 

7. CNC prototyping

I work mostly alone. Experimentation costs time, and money. (atm without a job)

* My CNC machine + TinyG costed €1,500.

* Making huge (doublesided) PCBs like my Kickstarter on cnc is asking for trouble. I havent tried it. Its gonna cost me too much €'s. I work on much smaller things.

* Drillbits are €12 per set imported from China. €19 if bought locally.

* Drillbits wear out rather quickly from 0,2mm to 0,4mm thick.

Software vs Hardware

Developing software one can do all for free.

 

ATM my 3x backers isnt exaclty breaking down the door to get this board. I wont worry too much. Hell i will be happy if least get to send off 10x DIY kits.

 

9. team

There is no information at all about the other guy's (Lodewijk) qualifications.

Well.. his pedigree. The same as mine. Is a hobby electronics guy. We met a few months ago at a job fair and agreed to work together. This PCB was about 99,99% my own work.

 

10. Sharing experiences

I wanna share my learning experiences here on this forum, with any1 willing or interested. So we can all benefit.

 

11. Kids in Africa?

Yes, it can help. Most definitley!!

The market isnt there, its here. I wanna start a Impact Accelerator.

 

Here's how.

1. Start humble. Grow big.. (thats the idea)

2. Get interest from Social minded capital investors. They dont invest into ideas. They invest into a proven track record. Such as the Kickstarter.

3. Approach social investors so we can start a training facility in Suid-Afrika (South Africa).

4. Start a impact accelerator (social investment).

5. Train trainers in ZA which will do Q&A there.

6. Train ppl get PCBs prototyping / manufactured / assembled there and projects such as IoT.

7. Resulting in oppertunities for ppl who otherwise would live in dispair all their life.

 

Dont give Africans a fish, teach them how to fish themselves.

 

8. Kids there learns about DCS, they buy/create PCBs and who knows it spinoffs an industry? :P

 

Hope this clarifys.

 

The domain

Yes i need to register it soon!

For the production boards i will use my own domain erasmus-ict.nl

 

Mass production

Not likely in my lifetime. Yes its a singel specific airframe. Price also means time. Design and iron out bugs, which one can sell the same board for next 5 years. Maybe have ppl in Zuid-Afrika assemble it. They too can receive a small €'s for the effort.

 

Yes, u can build it yourself. But.. thats defeats my social enterprise intention.

The sources will be on Github anyway.

 

Hope this answers (most) questions.

Current status. 3 backers :joystick:. I wont worry that much.

 

 

regards,

Michiel Erasmus aka 159th_pappavis

 

 

 

Ian;2801581']You are, but someone who just reads through your Kickstarter campaign page isn't. You make it sound like they don't have to learn about these things, it even has "plug and play" in the project name!

 

 

Nothing wrong with that, but if you advertise "plug and play" those things become your responsibility.

 

 

I admit I don't know much about CNC machines, but I think if you break two or more drill bits while milling a single copper clad board, you are doing something wrong.

 

 

It can be made safe from the taxman, but the amount of paperwork required to do this is not worth it.

 

 

Why? To save money compared to building myself?

 

Arduino Nano (including the USB cable) for $2.48

20 toggle switches for $6.26

10 potentiometers for $2.90

10 potentiometer knobs for $0.88

10x MAX487CPA for $1.20

 

That's all of the neccessary components for $13.72, which is about $11.28 below your kit price. That still doesn't include the PCB, which will be about $30 shipped for 5 pieces, but if we are not going for accurate dimensions anyway I might as well build it on Veroboard.

 

I don't think your kit price is too high, but I do think that to compete with DIY, you will have to offer something that I can't build myself for less with components to spare afterwards. Maybe offer a custom CNC-engraved faceplate or something.

 

The other possible reason to back your kickstarter is to help you start your business, in case I am interested in your future products. To do that, you'd have to convince me that you will be able to achieve your goals, i.e. that you know what you are doing.

 

You seem to be a business analyst who is just getting started with electronics. Nothing wrong with that, but being able to build a basic panel and being able to bring an electronics product to market are two very different things.

 

There is no information at all about the other guy's (Lodewijk) qualifications.

 

The domain that you have printed on the silkscreen of your board is not even registered. Do you have so little faith in your own success that you are not willing to invest the small fee for a one year domain registration?

 

You also did not address any of my previous comments regarding regulatory compliance. Yes, you can ignore all of those and hope for the best, and it will probably work, but if that's your plan you should add "might get sued into oblivion" and "product may be held and/or destroyed by customs due to lack of CE certification" to the "Risks and challenges" section on your kickstarter page.

 

And then there is the part about helping kids in Africa that just made me go WTF? You won't help anyone by teaching them about "electronics and flight simulators", because there is no money to be made there. The market is just too small.

 

Consider this: Saitek is certainly using mass production for their switch panel, and at about 120 Euros it's still considered expensive by a lot of people. They are targeting the market of all FSX users. Projects like yours are targeting a subset of DCS users that fly a particular airframe. You won't be able to bring the price down through mass production.

Flightsim cockpits is exclusive to serious skilled ppl. I wish to close that gap. More ppl can have fun.

 

Yes it is, but your not offering a flight sim cockpit. Your offering something most people can learn how to make with very little effort. I would suggest there is no gap to close, yourself excluded. In fact the effort required to learn how to program and run your "potential" product is actually more than whats needed to build any panel right from scratch using one's own resources... ie, internet, soldering iron, ability to read. If one were to buy a bunch of switches as Ian illustrated and then purchased a simple Bodnar board for $35 you would only need to wire those switches to the board and plug it in. "Thats it" as it really is "Plug n Play" and you would be done. No need to learn to program. No need to learn how to use an Arduino board. No need to learn how to use DCS-BIOS. You would however end up with 32 switches to use instead of the 13 your offering. BTW, I made 15 panels before I started a more professional cockpit and NOT ONE REQUIRED A PCB. It is absolutely unnecessary for a switch panel.

 

Why is my asking price €25?

Unlike software the physical Hardware isn't free.

I guess its ok if its free software:music_whistling:... I find your statement about the cost of software insulting. First of all most software isn't free. Only by Ians good nature has he made DCS-BIOS available to all of us to use at no cost. But I take offense when someone uses his good nature to try and make money from his hundreds of hours of work.:mad: Yes he has told me that he's not concerned but you should know... my opinion of this action is less than sparkling. :thumbdown:

 

Why is my asking price €25?

I needed to buy a CNC machine

Really??? :doh: (read: major sarcasm)

 

You didn't NEED to buy a CNC machine. You WANTED to buy a CNC machine and now you would like someone to help pay for it or at least the tooling. As Ian said if you are using 2 drill bits per board you are doing something wrong. I would suggest an alternative reason however that wouldn't be appropriate to state but its actually not very surprising considering all that I have read so far. BTW, I buy my bits from China as well. Except I don't pay even 1/10 of what you suggest they cost. :megalol: Another BTW, Just so you know... I AM a CNC expert.

 

Kids there learns about DCS, they buy/create PCBs and who knows it spinoffs an industry?

Africa??? You are unbelievable. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean I actually don't believe what your saying. It just doesn't make any sense. If there's so much despair how would they ever afford a PC or even electricity if they are that poverty struck. Tugging on ones heart strings with that kind of bullcrap only produces sour notes.

 

When I read your Kickstarter I see this... "Pay Me so I can have fun with my hobby".

 

But that is just my opinion and I have been known to be wrong (although not often). I will, however, let your kickstarter campaign be the judge of your credibility. :tomato:

 

1. Plug-n-play.

Recently i bought a HTC Vive. Its no plug-n-play. Only 1 controller works wirelessly. Sumting with my USB chipset. Disappointed? Yes. Enjoying my vive? YES :).

 

 

I fail to see how the HTC Vive not being plug-n-play makes your product plug-n-play. As Ian said, in order for something to be plug-n-play you should need only to plug it and and then you're ready to use it. This is clearly not the case with your product, and as such it would in my book be classified as false advertising.

 

I really can't muster the strength to address the rest of your post but as stated before, two drillbits per manufactured piece sounds backwards as hell.

Why all the ANGER towards me?

 

If any1 can make a cockpitpanel, then why havent YOU built a Thrustmaster Warthog stick? :P

 

Please answer these questions;

1. Does every1 have a soldering iron?

2. Does every DCS: MiG-21bis pilot have tech savvy to research & build cockpit(panels)?

3. Warhog, there is a market for A-10C off-the-shelf panels. Why havent you built panels for other ppl?

4. Why did Thrustmaster make the Warthog stick & throttle. Is it wrong?

5. Whats wrong to share experiences?

6. Is it wrong to provide a service/product to fellow DCS: MiG-21bis fans?

7. Is it wrong to release my designs as Open Source..?

8. Is it wrong to share the success amongst contributors?

 

THANX goes to;

* [FSF] Ian -- who stuck his neck out giving us DCS-BIOS.

* wraith444 -- for the MiG-21bis LUA-code.

* Leatherneck Simulations for the MIG-21bis.

* Eagle Dynamics for DCS.

 

Instead of screaming murder JOIN me, lets create SOLUTIONS for ppl who arent as fortunate as us.

 

The fanaticism expressed here borders on insanity. :lol:

Edited June 6, 2016 by pappavis

If any1 can make a cockpitpanel, then why havent YOU built a Thrustmaster Warthog stick?

 

You see this is where the problem is... you make ridiculous or incorrect statements and/or assumptions. There is no thought behind what you consider statements of fact. This has destroyed your credibility.

Firstly, making a stick is not making a panel. If you thought about what you just said you might realise that there is a huge difference between building one vs the other. And I am building a new stick and pedals and MFCD frames.

Does every1 have a soldering iron?

Probably. So what? Its usually as common as a set of screw drivers and is found in most tool boxes. It is a very low priced acquisition.

Does every DCS: MiG-21bis pilot have tech savvy to research & build cockpit(panels)?

Yes. If you want to fly an A10 in DCS you have to learn how. It is difficult and there is a long learning curve. If you want to make a panel for DCS you also need to learn how. But I would suggest learning to fly the A10 is far more difficult than learning how to make a simple switch panel. 3 years ago, having zero experience in electronics, I learned how to make a switch panel in an afternoon of reading through this forum. It was amazingly simple. And as I previously stated a circuit board is completely unnecessary. Again, this goes to credibility

Warhog, there is a market for A-10C off-the-shelf panels. Why havent you built panels for other ppl

NO THERE ISN"T. Here you go again. If you did your due diligence and researched the market you would find quite a few people are making panels for sale. I have to laugh at how many people buy one of these cheap Chinese CNC routers and then justify the cost to their wife saying "I can pay for this by selling the panels I make". Yeah right! :music_whistling:

Whats wrong to share experiences?

Nothing as long as its good factual information offered at no cost. This forum is for the free exchange of information and assistance. It is not or should not be used for commercial gain. There is a section on the ED board for "Selling". As to sharing experiences, I share as often as I can. In fact, I will be publishing every Arduino Sketch I write as well as the corresponding schematics for every associated panel once my pit has been tested and is 100% operational. And I won't be asking for donations or anything else to cover the hundreds of hours spent learning, testing, building, photographing and typing responses to help people on this forum. I do this to repay all those that helped me as I moved forward with my pit.

 

If you truly want to do something helpful, then write a detailed tutorial on how to make a switch panel using an Arduino board. Illustrate every single step required to make it functional using pictures and diagrams and links for parts, etc . Then place it on this forum for all to download and use at no cost. You accomplish 2 things...you learn how to make a switch panel and then you teach others how to do it. Thats what I consider as creating a solution rather than asking for money so you can play at your hobby.

Warhog, are you feeling unapreciated? I respect you for the effort u had done. U made a friggin good cockpit/panels. U are respeced on the pitbuilders subforum.

 

Thing is.. not every1 has the time/inclination to spend HOURS bent over manuals. Sum stuff one can better buy as finished product. If u decide to kickstarter your panels I'll be the first to back your project... if its reasonably priced.

 

If you truly want to do something helpful, then write a detailed tutorial

 

I already did that. . Making HOWTO vids takes lotsa time and thought.

 

HOWTO KiCAD for DCSMiG-21bis

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

HOWTO make PCB at home.

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

HOWTO Flatcam + Chillipepr

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

The mig-21bis main powerpanel in operation.

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

HOWTO Inskcape for laser cutter & CNC machines

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

HOWTO MiG-21bis nighttime navigation.

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

I am not claiming anything, neither pretending to know-it-all.

Its a learning experience.

John, i don't entirely disagree with you , but I do think you are overreacting there a bit. Anyone can take on any kind of project and ask whatever amount of compensation for it. I don't understand the purpose or need of this particular one for all the reasons you mentioned, but OP is entitled to take on whatever he sees right in whatever way he intends to accomplish.

 

Михель ,(did I get your name right?) While the business plan of funding CNC and such is not my business, As I told you in the previous thread I fail to see purpose for your device. If someone wants simple toggle box to augment his flight setup there is a sticky thread here that shows how to create one that has many advantages over your item. Ian already went great lengths explaining why his BIOS is not P&P . Do you really not see that accomplishing such device would be much easier with a joystick controller such as bodnar or gpwiz40 board?As someone who started on this mad journey with a simple toggle panel I can tell you that the most crucial item for that kind of device is not PCB but an enclosure with a way to put labels on. And I'm quite sure someone pursuing such pit will be making plans to solder a lot

Feel free to keep disregarding of course.

John, i don't entirely disagree with you , but I do think you are overreacting there a bit.

Maybe so Anton. I just wanted to challenge his credibility and motivations. Too many things didn't make sense and I'm still of the opinion that this is just a "Pay me so I can play with my hobby" kind of thing.

 

But I'm going to shut up now as I think I've said enough. I expect the results of the kickstarter campaign will be the final judge of this venture.

 

Thank you all and good night. :pilotfly:

I expect the results of the kickstarter campaign will be the final judge of this venture.

 

I think the results, or lack of, so far say plenty.

You're a sad bunch. Let the guy have some fun and help other people in the process.

You're a sad bunch. Let the guy have some fun and help other people in the process.

 

What bugs me is that the Kickstarter page makes false claims about the capabilities of my software.

 

I don't want to deal with support queries from angry users who expect DCS-BIOS to be something it is not. I enjoy supporting people who are curious and eager to learn. But dealing with people who expect me to spoon-feed them everything because they refuse to read the manual ("but the guy said it would be plug and play!") will be very frustrating. At a certain point, I can ignore them, but I have to deal with them at least long enough to distinguish between "this guy is lazy" and "might just be a language barrier".

 

The Kickstarter campaign page tries to appeal to people who don't want to learn how to build and program these boards by claiming the product is plug and play. Such claims will create the type of user that I don't want to deal with.

 

Its plug-play using USB and uses the open source library ‘DCS-BIOS’ by “[FSF] Ian”.

 

This is false. DCS-BIOS does not enable plug-and-play operation of those panels. The user has to learn a few things about how DCS-BIOS works and do a little work themselves to get the panel to run.

 

What do you get?

[...]

* RS-485 serial communication between multiple arduino’s.

 

This part is advertising a feature as working and finished that is still very experimental. As far as I know, no one has tested this with more than two or three panels yet, and currently there is a bug that prevents it from working entirely. There is a reason this feature is not even mentioned in the User Guide yet.

 

I am fine with people using DCS-BIOS for commercial purposes, but please do it in a way that does not create more frustrating work for myself.

Ian brings up a good point. I'm in networking business. Been doing it a long time. And you'll find that most default vendor values are what I call "guardian angels for the clueless" Most default values are safe enough to *not* generate that support call. It takes money, time, and effort to build and maintain a support organization. Getting inundated with support calls can be detrimental.

 

I think the OP wanted to give credit where credit was due. But as you can see, Ian is concerned about getting queries from people who expect to plug it in and get to sim'ing in a few seconds.

 

Also, I found that there are classes of people who know *NOTHING* about putting something like this together. And really, the hard part is modifying the lua script to have it interact. Again, noting that there are those who can't screw in a light bulb or think continuity test is magic. So if the lua scripts/integration to DCS are provided, it could be relatively easy for users to add to their experience.

 

Others like HEGYKC and Lynx are attempting the same thing, though they seem to be farther along the journey.

 

I say let the market decide.

Well said welcome to my club.

NO THERE ISN"T. Here you go again. If you did your due diligence and researched the market you would find quite a few people are making panels for sale. I have to laugh at how many people buy one of these cheap Chinese CNC routers and then justify the cost to their wife saying "I can pay for this by selling the panels I make". Yeah right! :music_whistling:

 

.

I don't know about anybody else, but I know I sure love backing Kickstarter projects with administrators who immediately have to defend the morality of their business model.

 

What really amuses me is Michiel's inability- in fact, outright obfuscation (see: the Vive argument), to uphold his product's own stated claim of "plug and play". Plug and play doesn't entail soldering, leads, and code. But it's apparently problematic to point this out- giving us the early appeal to morality.

 

Now, if he wants to go through the process of soldering joint, constructing every board, authoring the necessary scripts, and building an installer- then he'll be in the realm of plug and play. Otherwise, it's a bag of parts with no support (well, let's be truthful- it'll be Ian and the rest of the forum forced to play technical support) and a PCB constructed by what is clearly a poor process.

 

The argument is to let him "help people"- the problem is that he's not actually helping anybody other than himself.

For what its worth, I would trust pappavis and his intentions entirely. he's always been a good guy with honest intentions and extremely helpful to those whom come to him with questions. The 159th is certainly a group that is quite giving to the community and I owe them much. That said, it pains me to see the tone this thread has taken - questioning the venture proposed is fine but there really are other ways to present positions and inquiries that dispense with the vitriol and hostility.

 

yes - many folks could make these panels themselves - part of what sets a "Market rate" is determining a price that i will accept so I do not have to do more work than i want to... 25 Euro to me is in that ball park as it saves my time searching/ordering/messing with learning Bodnar... Sure, I'll have to mess about with DCS BIOS but that was expected when I heard it mentioned. That said, I was interpreting his "Plug and Play" to refer to the plugging of switches into his custom PCB board, not the plug and play into the sim but I can see how the confusion can arise and I might be wrong on how he intended to use that term.

 

At any rate, it would likely be much better for us all if we dialed back a bit on the tone here.

 

Here's a cat

Did the main thread disappear? Clicking the link in the first post yields an error message: "Invalid Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

 

EDIT: that was probably a side effect of the two threads being merged.

Edited June 7, 2016 by [FSF]Ian

Its not always an evil plot.

 

This is quite true. I did not see the original thread anywhere when I looked this morning.