Why aren't there today any real good joysticks?

• http://gaming.logitech.com/nl-be/product/extreme-3d-pro-joystick (*)
  
  
• http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/flight-system-g940 (* discontinued)
  
  

• http://www.thrustmaster.com/products/t16000m (*)
  
  
• http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-hotas-4
  
• http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/hotas-warthog
  
• http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-hotas-x
  
• http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-stick-x
  

• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x55.html (*)
  
  
• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52pro.html
  
• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52.html
  
• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/fly5.html
  
• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/v1.html
  

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder
  

I'll agree on Force Feedback, i've sorely missed since the theft of my MS FFB2 stick and though my X55 is fantastic, i do miss the feedback. I wish MS would make that stick again, albeit with better/more buttons. There are some on ebay but you never know what you are going to get.

In regards to point 7, The X 55 does have a twist stick and can be used for rudders, the Warthog doesn't have a twist.

I guess the "problem" with your list is you will never get a "cheap" joystick with all those inclusive functions (at present) such as a Logitech or Thrustmaster T-1600. Even the expensive ones won't cover it all. The Warthog is top of the line and has no FF or twist stick - it could be argued that that improves the reliability of the stick and is a selling point rather than a detraction.

I would love to see a HOTAS setup that has all those features and is reasonably priced.

All,

 

With this article i would like to express a dissatisfaction regarding the todays available joysticks on the market.

 

Since my youth I am a flight simulation enthousiast. Now being 46, i find someting really disturbing: there simply aren't any good joysticks anymore on the market, or, they are too expensive while still missing key functions...

 

The most important factor of a good joystick is:

- Be precise in its movements and does not jitter

- Allow to move the handle without requiring a lot of force from the wrist or arm.

- Have no gradations of force to be applied to a joystick.

For example, if you need to apply more force to move the joystick out of the center,

it is very disturbing.

- Have all the required buttons (see below) and hats.

- Have a rudder function.

- Simple to setup (plug and play). Not everyone has a dedicated flight lab...

 

Look at my comments below, there is today simply not even one joystick on the market that has these functions ...

 

1. Very important: A working force feedback function. This is very important for flying helicopters. When you trim the helicopter rotors, the stick should take the position of the last trimmed position. Also, for other airplanes, the force feedback can provide additional realism to the game in terms of shaking and resistance... And, very important, the joystick force feedback mechanism should be quiet. The best force feedback joystick made every was the Microsoft Sidewinder 2 FF joystick. The Logitech G940 is the worst force feedback joystick. One has to hide a small detector to make the force feedback work as it should, and the motor of the force feedback is very noisy!

 

2. Very important: Two types of fire buttons that you can press with your pointing finger. One to fire guns, and one for other ammunition.

 

3. Very important: Slew hats on the top of the joystick, that can be used to slew pointers, aming crosses, cameras etc. Most joysticks today only have binary slew hats, that can slew up, down, left, right and sometimes also diagonal (but not always). A good joystick should have analogue slew hats, which allow to slew pointers to all directions, but also, to define the speed of the slew determined by the amount of slew you apply on the hat. If the slew is more to the center, then the speed should be slow, if the slew is more to the border, the slew should be fast...

 

7. Very important: Rudder function by rotating the stick left or right. The Logitech or the Thrustmaster T-1600M have this function. However, more expense joysticks like the Saitek X55 or the Thrustmaster Hotas lack this function. You need special pedals for that, which is hard to setup and remove, and is an additional cost.

 

4. Important: Various buttons on the top of the joystick, typically to fire rockets, targetting, selecting and changing targets, etc... Most joysticks have this functionality.

 

5. Important: An analogue slider to apply trust to engines. I find only some joysticks to have this functionality.

 

6. Switches or buttons that can be applied to certain plane functions. I find some joysticks to have this feature very much developed. Like to hotas or the Saitek X55... Some joysticks have merely buttons, like the Thrustmaster T-1600M or the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

 

7. Lights: Useful to have lights indicating if certain switches are on or off...

 

 

Well ... If somebody on the forum could highlight me a model that have these options, I think it would help a lot of people ... Most joysticks have lots of features described above, but not all inclusive. I find Logitech one of the most dissapointing companies today when it comes to joystick production. For some reason they are releasing at least 3 to 4 different mouse and controller types a year, but when it comes to joysticks, they have the same model available for the last 5 years ... Find below a list of available joysticks. I've indicated with a * the ones that i have personally used during my virtual flight career...

 

Logitech:

 

• http://gaming.logitech.com/nl-be/product/extreme-3d-pro-joystick (*)
  
  
• http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/flight-system-g940 (* discontinued)
  
  

Thrustmaster:

 

• http://www.thrustmaster.com/products/t16000m (*)
  
  
• http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-hotas-4
  
• http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/hotas-warthog
  
• http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-hotas-x
  
• http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-stick-x
  

Saitek:

 

• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x55.html (*)
  
  
• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52pro.html
  
• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52.html
  
• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/fly5.html
  
• http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/v1.html
  

Microsoft (does not produce joysticks anymore...):

 

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder
  

kind regards,

Sven

If you are talking about the stick by its self, you may be correct but what company or should I say how many company sell a all in one unit, most have a combination of stick and throttle that would encompass just about everything you mention with the exception of FF. I have owned the X52, X52pro and currently using the X55 Rhino and it seems to do everything I want, does it have FFB no but I can live without that and this also applies to my X52's. Reason for replacing each is obvious, more/better features.

Hi too-cool,

I have the X55 myself, and it is indeed an excellent machinery. But I really miss the force feedback, like the G940 (with a small modification) can provide.

I think one can only appreciate FFB if one has ever used it...

Another thing the X55 misses is analogue slew hats...

Sven

Well, I think the most universal X-52 is still top notch.

I disregard Warthog or another dedicated joy because it is not universal, it is made for specific plane.

Today there is no too much choice, I can say most in the world has worsen quality than before.

Agreed in feedback part and the others.

But good joystick shouldn't have a rudder function by any meaning. Especially "Rudder function by rotating the stick left or right" - this is totally unacceptable for GOOD flying hardware.

Boberro:

@ I disregard Warthog or another dedicated joy because it is not universal, it is made for specific plane@

It is made for specific plane and can be used for particular plane as well as for any other plane or even spaceship. From the other hand - all that "not dedicated" fancy joysticks are made just for some common not-specified type of unknown vehicle, hence cannot be successfully used with any plane at all. ^)

Add VKB to this list.

Also Flightlink G-Stick on the semi pro side.

Also, a joystick that has everything would be so expensive that no one would buy it except a few, this is not profitable.

Today the choice is quite good IMO.

One thing I'd like is one stick with a truly good feeling in the center (they all give the impression the stick is stuck in a hole), otherwise what we have pretty much fills the bill.

Why aren't there today any real good joysticks?

Well, at least today joysticks are better than past days joysticks. :)

- Two types of fire buttons that you can press with your pointing finger.

Ideally two separated trigger - was used in Defender Cobra M5 (VKB project). F-16 solution, double stage trigger is good for... F-16/10 only.

- Slew hats

Analog HAT on joystick was used in Logitech G-940, dont know users feedback about...

- Rudder function by rotating the stick left or right.

Difficult to implement in "high end joystick" with quality, VKB say than will increase the joy in ~70$ a "twist rudder" with bearings and contactless sensor... Twist rudder are low cost solution for low cost entry level joystick/HOTAS

BTW - X-55 has "twist rudder".

- analogue slider

Unless a low cost Saitek that have "digital throttle" all joystick that provide integrated throttle use analog axis, in form of "slider" Tm16000M, MS FFB2... or rotary, CH Fighterstick, Cobra M5... but both are analog axis - what matter.

The issue is, most josytick are designed to be cheap, so have 4 buttons + trigger HAT, and is "3in".

Or try replicate a give plane controls, Cougar (F-16) and Warthog (A-10) what result in good option for this planes, but not as "universal" joystick.

Other good ideas used in past/actual models:

Adjustable height hand rest (Saitek X-52).

No implemented until now but desirable, a analog (axis) lever in front of grip for use as "wheel brakes": Ka-50, Mig-15, -21, Spitfire, Hurricane, Blenheim, Lagg-3, La-5, Yak-1, Mig-3, IL-2, Pe-2...

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_01_2016/post-15841-0-26717400-1453664175.jpg

I disregard Warthog or another dedicated joy because it is not universal, it is made for specific plane.

Sure it's a replica of the A-10C stick and throttle but the A-10C uses the same stick as the F-16, and the same (more or less) throttle as the F-15, so saying it's specialized to a single airframe is just not true. Nothing is stopping you from using it with any other military aircraft.

I honestly can't see how using a stick that is modeled after a REAL aircraft is somehow worse than using a stick that someone at Saitek or logitech developed that looks like some kind of sci-fi toy that has little to no resemblance to the real deal. I'm not saying they're not good products though, I'm sure they're great, I just don't get the logic you are trying to apply. :P

Warthog HOTAS doesn't have radar antenna elevation wheel and the ministick is unsatisfactory hence it fails as an universal HOTAS.

Well, at least today joysticks are better than past days joysticks. :)

 

- Two types of fire buttons that you can press with your pointing finger.

 

Ideally two separated trigger - was used in Defender Cobra M5 (VKB project). F-16 solution, double stage trigger is good for... F-16/10 only.

- Slew hats

 

Analog HAT on joystick was used in Logitech G-940, dont know users feedback about...

 

I also used the G940, great joystick and had also many of the features described, indeed including the analogue slew hat. Only... the analogue slew was VERY unprecise, and when i let go the slew hat, the slew did not stop, it just kept on slewing...

- Rudder function by rotating the stick left or right.

 

Difficult to implement in "high end joystick" with quality, VKB say than will increase the joy in ~70$ a "twist rudder" with bearings and contactless sensor... Twist rudder are low cost solution for low cost entry level joystick/HOTAS

BTW - X-55 has "twist rudder".

Yep. I also have the X-55. It does have the twist rudder. I do like to have a twist rudder, as it is portable. I can take my joystick wherever i want and twist and turn :-)

 

- analogue slider

 

Unless a low cost Saitek that have "digital throttle" all joystick that provide integrated throttle use analog axis, in form of "slider" Tm16000M, MS FFB2... or rotary, CH Fighterstick, Cobra M5... but both are analog axis - what matter.

 

The issue is, most josytick are designed to be cheap, so have 4 buttons + trigger HAT, and is "3in".

 

Or try replicate a give plane controls, Cougar (F-16) and Warthog (A-10) what result in good option for this planes, but not as "universal" joystick.

 

Other good ideas used in past/actual models:

Adjustable height hand rest (Saitek X-52).

 

No implemented until now but desirable, a analog (axis) lever in front of grip for use as "wheel brakes": Ka-50, Mig-156, 21, Spitfire, Hurricane, Blenheim, Lagg-2, La-5, Yak-1, Mig-3, IL-2, Pe-2...

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_01_2016/post-15841-0-26717400-1453664175.jpg

Well, I think the most universal X-52 is still top notch.

I disregard Warthog or another dedicated joy because it is not universal, it is made for specific plane.

I disagree. The Cougar design is as universal as it gets, it's like X-52 with more buttons, hats, a proper analog slew control, adjustable throttle detent and more powerful software. Too bad the mechanical part was crap without mods.

Warthog - yes, the throttle is not very universal because of the problems mentioned above. The joystick, well, I haven't found any simulated aircraft that needs more buttons/hats than the stick has, and I usually have a few left for Trackir and other simulator functions.

- Two types of fire buttons that you can press with your pointing finger.

 

Ideally two separated trigger - was used in Defender Cobra M5 (VKB project). F-16 solution, double stage trigger is good for... F-16/10 only.

The twin trigger configuration is rarely used in real aircraft, while the dual stage trigger is pretty common. So what you are asking for, is ditching a useful feature for something less practical.

FFB - I agree, whould be great to have it. The problem is that a good, strong and smooth FFB (not the notchy one like in G940) is quite expensive to make. If you look at the maket of PC racing wheels with FFB, the decent ones cost even more than the most expensive HOTAS and offer only one FFB axis while a joystick needs two.

Analog brake lever, yeah, would be great, although depending on the aircraft you need analog axis (mostly russian aircraft with central brake system), or a button (most modern HOTAS aircraft).

And what about the analog slew hats?

Everyone wants all the features for free. Myself included. ;)

The high end joystick market seems to be pretty competitive. The materials cost on high end stuff is pretty high, meaning that companies can't make a lot of money on them. You couldn't add features to an X52 or a TM warthog without making them cost a lot more.

Some of the features asked for are features people who will pay a lot of money don't actually want (I don't ever want a twist grip rudder on my Warthog, even if that was the reason I tried using an X52 before the Warthog).

Force feedback in joysticks never really took off, despite a small loyal following. The cost of adding it means you have to skimp on more popular features to keep the same price point.

The joystick market is small. It's not like mice or Xbox controllers. If you want to make a successful joystick you've got to knock an established player out of the park, and you don't want to dilute your market and increase manufacturing costs by making a dozen different models. You aren't going to get 10,000 people to buy each model by making a bunch of different joysticks, you'll just split those 10,000 people among all your models, and multiply your support and supply chain headaches.

It's just economics. Your dream joystick will cost more than you are willing to pay for, so manufacturers make compromises, and we call them cheap-asses for it. Such is the way of life ;)

The OP's list is the reason why. For example, I couldcare less about force feedback. Nor about twist rudder (I have MFGs). So market is pretty fragmented in terms of what is considered "must have'

If you go with a bespoke solution, you have to pay over $1,000.

And what about the analog slew hats?

Cougar has one on the throttle, works quite good. Warthog also has one on the throttle, but it is crap.

I remember it was possible to swap the mouse control on the Saitek hotas for an additional slew control, don't know if it is still an option in the current software.

Everyone wants all the features for free. Myself included. ;)

 

The high end joystick market seems to be pretty competitive. The materials cost on high end stuff is pretty high, meaning that companies can't make a lot of money on them. You couldn't add features to an X52 or a TM warthog without making them cost a lot more.

 

Some of the features asked for are features people who will pay a lot of money don't actually want (I don't ever want a twist grip rudder on my Warthog, even if that was the reason I tried using an X52 before the Warthog).

 

Force feedback in joysticks never really took off, despite a small loyal following. The cost of adding it means you have to skimp on more popular features to keep the same price point.

 

The joystick market is small. It's not like mice or Xbox controllers. If you want to make a successful joystick you've got to knock an established player out of the park, and you don't want to dilute your market and increase manufacturing costs by making a dozen different models. You aren't going to get 10,000 people to buy each model by making a bunch of different joysticks, you'll just split those 10,000 people among all your models, and multiply your support and supply chain headaches.

 

It's just economics. Your dream joystick will cost more than you are willing to pay for, so manufacturers make compromises, and we call them cheap-asses for it. Such is the way of life ;)

And the company leading this behavior is Logitech... This used to be the top company when it came to controllers... And look now, how many flight gear is in G? They obviously do a lot of sacrifices, or Logitech is managed by people who don't understand their own roots and don't understand todays market ... If Logitech would engineer a top level flight stick, it would sell, because they have the reputation and today there is a demand for it.

The twin trigger configuration is rarely used in real aircraft, while the dual stage trigger is pretty common. So what you are asking for, is ditching a useful feature for something less practical.

You missing that a dual trigger like in Cobra M-5 can be used as dual stage trigger, just press the first over the second trigger, was designed in that way. :thumbup:

Flying a Bf 109 a dual trigger allow use cannon only, MG only or both if want.

So this arrange is most useful in "universal stick".

A more ideal "universal" game joysticks will a mix of real ones - from western and eastern "sides" - and game specific solutions.

And what about the analog slew hats?

Probable the best example of this is in actual sticks the Cougar TQS thumb "slew" - in true a "PS3 like mini-joystick" - and is not too much practical because you move the target cursor, but when depress the HAT for the center click involuntary can move the cursor together...

This was tried at last in three way in COTS sticks:

- Pressure device "Transducer"- like a IBM laptop mouse - in Tm F22PRO. Seems similar in X-55.

- Analog "mini-stick" with pot' in Cougar, X-52, CH throttle.

- Digital "mini-stick" with HALL sensor (cellphone cursor?) in Warthog.

None result a "perfect" solution for game usage...

These seem nice, no price yet atm:

http://www.bugeyetech.com/#!a-10c-grip-/cl7p

http://www.bugeyetech.com/#!ah-64/c1kgb

Bug-Eye Low-cost option: http://www.f-16grips.com/

And some nice helicopter controls: http://oe-xam-simulators.blogspot.be/

FFB is sorely missing though.

And the company leading this behavior is Logitech... This used to be the top company when it came to controllers... And look now, how many flight gear is in G? They obviously do a lot of sacrifices, or Logitech is managed by people who don't understand their own roots and don't understand todays market ... If Logitech would engineer a top level flight stick, it would sell, because they have the reputation and today there is a demand for it.

Well, I've met Douglas Engelbart, the inventor of the mouse, and as far as I know, Logitech kept him on the payroll with his own little workshop until his death. So to say they forgot their roots is a bit silly.

The problem is that there is not a demand for it at the price it would cost to produce. If they wanted to put out something top of the line, they have to beat the quality of the TM warthog at a similar price. If they want to put out something cheap, they have to beat the price of the X52 at a similar quality.

So let's say that Logitech makes a competitor to the TM Warthog with a similar feature set, and they want to distinguish themselves by making it have high quality force feedback as well. That just added $40 or more in components alone to the design. That also doesn't account for designing the stick itself. You have to pay someone to do that, and the best ways of accomplishing a task might be patented, so you might have to licence it, and spend yet more money. The extra complexity of the design means more steps to assemble it, and that costs more too. Suddenly your $450 joystick is now a $550 joystick, and you're only going to sell a few thousand units a year.

If they tried to beat the cost of the X52, they run the risk of producing a piece of garbage that will ruin their brand name.

What there is demand for is a TM warthog with a force trim capability, with the X52 Pro's LCD and LEDS, and easy to use programming software, with zero bugs, and a 0.01% failure rate. All for the price of a Logitech Xtreme 3D pro. I know this because it is what I want as well. But it's not realistic.

I imagine that if someone set to work in their garage, they could blow the pants off what is on the market now, but I also think that they would be charging $800 or more. The joystick would be worth it too, but I wouldn't be buying one. It won't make me a better pilot.

These seem nice, no price yet atm:

 

http://www.bugeyetech.com/#!a-10c-grip-/cl7p

 

http://www.bugeyetech.com/#!ah-64/c1kgb

 

Bug-Eye Low-cost option: http://www.f-16grips.com/

 

And some nice helicopter controls: http://oe-xam-simulators.blogspot.be/

 

FFB is sorely missing though.

If you have to ask about the price of those bugeye tech units, you can't afford them. :music_whistling:

Well, I've met Douglas Engelbart, the inventor of the mouse, and as far as I know, Logitech kept him on the payroll with his own little workshop until his death. So to say they forgot their roots is a bit silly.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is that there is not a demand for it at the price it would cost to produce. If they wanted to put out something top of the line, they have to beat the quality of the TM warthog at a similar price. If they want to put out something cheap, they have to beat the price of the X52 at a similar quality.

 

 

 

 

 

So let's say that Logitech makes a competitor to the TM Warthog with a similar feature set, and they want to distinguish themselves by making it have high quality force feedback as well. That just added $40 or more in components alone to the design. That also doesn't account for designing the stick itself. You have to pay someone to do that, and the best ways of accomplishing a task might be patented, so you might have to licence it, and spend yet more money. The extra complexity of the design means more steps to assemble it, and that costs more too. Suddenly your $450 joystick is now a $550 joystick, and you're only going to sell a few thousand units a year.

 

 

 

 

 

If they tried to beat the cost of the X52, they run the risk of producing a piece of garbage that will ruin their brand name.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I imagine that if someone set to work in their garage, they could blow the pants off what is on the market now, but I also think that they would be charging $800 or more. The joystick would be worth it too, but I wouldn't be buying one. It won't make me a better pilot.

Maybe you can ask douglas if he can have a re-look at the g940, which is to me the closest match to the requirements, only the following to be improved:

- make ffb work with magnets, instead of implementing the ffb using a coffee machine engine.

- get rid of the ffb detach sensor on the stick.

- have a re-look at the analogue slew hats.

- on the throttle, remove the ugly led buttons and implement switches like the x55, if possible with led indicators.

- if possible, implement on the stick the rudder twist, but I can live with pedals also...

That would be for me a perfect match for a 200€ stick, which is way cheaper than the warthog.

Sven

You missing that a dual trigger like in Cobra M-5 can be used as dual stage trigger, just press the first over the second trigger, was designed in that way. :thumbup:

 

Flying a Bf 109 a dual trigger allow use cannon only, MG only or both if want.

So this arrange is most useful in "universal stick".

 

A more ideal "universal" game joysticks will a mix of real ones - from western and eastern "sides" - and game specific solutions.

Except the real Bf-109 didn't have such arrangement, it had single stage trigger for guns and button on top for cannon. To be honest I don't know about any aircraft that had such dual trigger layout. Russian planes have a single trigger that can be moved and perform a different function (guns, rockets, weapon safe) but that's yet another thing.

Probable the best example of this is in actual sticks the Cougar TQS thumb "slew" - in true a "PS3 like mini-joystick" - and is not too much practical because you move the target cursor, but when depress the HAT for the center click involuntary can move the cursor together...

 

This was tried at last in three way in COTS sticks:

 

- Pressure device "Transducer"- like a IBM laptop mouse - in Tm F22PRO. Seems similar in X-55.

- Analog "mini-stick" with pot' in Cougar, X-52, CH throttle.

- Digital "mini-stick" with HALL sensor (cellphone cursor?) in Warthog.

 

None result a "perfect" solution for game usage...

There is no solution to this problem in the real planes either. That's why even if the slew control in the real aircraft can be depressed, it serves a secondary function that is not always used. Target designator control is separate. For example if the slew control is on the throttle (western planes) then the target desginator button is on the stick. If the slew control is on the stick (russian aircraft) then the target designator button is on the throttle.

I'm hoping that hegykc comes through with his effort to bring up quality joysticks of varying design. I'm pulling for him.