R-550Mk2 (Magic 2) & Super 530D Performances: Synthesis and sumary

I leave here synthesis and sumary of discusion about R-550 Mk2 (Magic 2) and Super 530D. I will update the post if new informations are coming if you want to link this thread in a post in the main ED bug report forum.

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Matra R-550 Mk2 (aka Magic II)

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Discusion synthesis and links:

Magic2 current in-game performance:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2618312&postcount=9

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2632420&postcount=1

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621678&postcount=107

we also noticed:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2632944&postcount=12

There is obviously a problem :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2620803&postcount=87

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2650168&postcount=296

What we know about the R-550 Mk2/Magic2 (except common sources):

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2619436&postcount=40

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621437&postcount=100

About the Magic1 :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621884&postcount=130

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2633017&postcount=13

but :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621936&postcount=134

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2622322&postcount=141

Then we also have this :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2630685&postcount=31

that show :

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=132216&stc=1&d=1452007620

Where we know that :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2632380&postcount=224

(meilleur domaine de tir = best lauching range)

Sumary:

- The R-550Mk2 is currently the worst modeled IR Short Range missile in the game, which seem ununderstandable.

- The current drag coeficient of the R-550Mk2 in game simply appear as a gross error.

- Current R-550Mk2 in game seem to be even the worst missile in term of "turn rate"/"reaction time", with max "30g" manoeuvers.

- The R-550Mk2 is in fact a >50g missile.

- From good sources (pilots's testimonies), the Magic1 (R-550) was already a 50g missile with better performance than the AIM-9M/L except for long range. The R-550Mk2 share the same aerodynamical design than the Magic1, but with improved seeker, proximity fuze and 10% more propellant.

- An Mirage 2000-C's HUD picture show the R-550Mk2 DLZ, where we can clearly see the 8nm/15Km claimed max range for the R-550Mk2 (AIM-9M is 18km), and the "Best Launching Range" at 4nm, with target at 140° aspect (40° away from aircraft) and ~790kt closure speed (the R-550Mk2 seeker locked the target at 6.5nm), which should make the R-550Mk2 comparable to the AIM-9M

- The inflicted damages to the target by the R-550Mk2 seem to be downgraded. Its warhead is configured at "Simple", we suspect this is not fair. The R-550Mk2 has an advanced proximity fuze and 12kg TNT, at least as much effective as the AIM-9M one.

- Detail: Current in-game Magic2 label is only "R-550", it should be at least "R-550-Mk2", "R-550 Mk2" or "R-550 Magic II" (Mk2 stands for Mark 2 = Magic II, "R-550" alone is "Magic1"

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Matra Super 530D:

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Discusion synthesis and links:

Current S-530D in-game performance:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2622766&postcount=254

Comparing Aim-7M:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621644&postcount=215

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621925&postcount=235

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621664&postcount=217

We noticed something strange:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621778&postcount=220

(an S-530D with a bigger cross sectional area than the AIM-54 ?)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621961&postcount=239

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621995&postcount=242

What we know about the S-530D (except common available data):

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2624275&postcount=259

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2624424&postcount=266

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2626799&postcount=298

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2629813&postcount=326

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2634053&postcount=388

We also have this:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2636550&postcount=394

Sumary:

- Despite the current good performances in game comparing the AIM-7M, it seem that the S-530D is slightly downgraded.

- The in-game S-530D have an ununderstandable drag coeficient, bigger than the AIM-54's one, higher than any other missil in its category.

- The S-530D is the last born of its familly ( R-530 => Super 530F =>Super 530D)

- If we except main "googlisable" sources that copie each others, the S-530D seem to have a max range of 50-60km.

- The "interception range" of the S-530D is 35km...

- The maximum speed of the S-530D is in fact Mach 5, which let hear that it have more thrust / less drag than the AIM-7M (which is limited to Mach 4).

- One good source seem to say that the S-530D is in fact slightly better than the AIM-7M (at least, the seeker).

- We know the S-530D's seeker is limited to 50 km, maybe it's why the claimed maximum range is "50 km", but the propellant/aerodynamical profil seems to give to the S-530D a better aero range in fact (60km ?).

- The ranges usullay given for the S-530D seem to be more "possible interception range" than "max aero range".

- In conclusion about S-530D vs AIM-7M: The S-530D should have at least comparable performances, and maybe slightly better.

- Current TNT load of the S-530D in game is 28kg, however, the claimed TNT load of the S-530D is in fact 32kg

- An video show the S-530D DLZ at low altitude (~5000ft) "Maximum Range" is floating 8-9nm and "Best Launch Range" is floating 6-8nm.

- Note: AIM-7M TNT load is 40kg, R-27 is 39 kg, S-530D is 32kg: less TNT + bigger/heavyer missile = more propellant ?

- Detail: It should be labeled "S-530D" or "Super 530D"

Thanks! This post is very usefull and ED should search here for "Hard" facts

Does anybody have one or more Tacview flight profile graph of Super 530D ?

Yes this is much more like it, well done Sedenion

Great work. This should be the reference post for Razbam to discuss with ED about the 2 missiles. Thanks a lot!

Folks, we are very much aware of the issue and we want to deal and solve it. So, please be patient.

Folks, we are very much aware of the issue and we want to deal and solve it. So, please be patient.

I juste leave that here to make things more quick/easy to read :)

Folks, we are very much aware of the issue and we want to deal and solve it. So, please be patient.

Thanks for the response and confirmation.

We all have faith in you and the team for everything to be spot on given some time.

So keep up the good work and take the time needed to get things right.

Folks, we are very much aware of the issue and we want to deal and solve it. So, please be patient.

we are patient. You mentionned in one post that ED needs facts and that's what sedenion just did. Good luck convincing ED :)

Good job Sedenion. The other threads had some good info, but it was getting lost in all the noise. Now we have it all in one easy to find place :)

Zeus,

We clearly all want the best sim possible. The community has put a lot of passion and work into their involvement.

That said impatience happens, we'll deal with it :cry:

But it does give ED an opportunity to rally the sim community around DCS, it all depends on how they react. I do wish this opportunity to address the Matra missiles and missiles in general leads to a bigger DCS following. There is no greater community than the sim crowd, and DCS has such amazing potential.

But the potential needs to be realized.

P.S. i have been enjoying flying the M2000 greatly. Thanks razbam for making it. :pilotfly:

Great job compiling this, it is always good to have the sources in one place.

Does anyone know the thrust profile for magic?

After looking at the missile I am making the following suggestions:

-Increase thrust/impulse (right now it is 2/3rds that of the AIM-9M)

-Increase lift (right now less than AIM-9M. Lift produces g's)

-Increase AoA (canard spoilers allow higher AoA stability)

If anyone is willing to test this, please try the following file (replace it in DCS World/Config/Weapons ... make sure you back it up first or you won't be able to play on public servers!)

This makes the above adjustments to the 550. I'll point out that the tuning is not perfect, so a bit more fine work may be required, but you should see an immediate change in performance.

missiles_data.lua

I have installed your missiles_data.lua in the correct location but it prevents my DCSW 1.52 Release version from starting ??.

Is this only intended to be tested in DCSW 2.0 Alpha ?.

Apologies, it is meant for 2.0 alpha, yes.

No problem

I'll play test this in 2.0 from now on then.

Thanks.

I spent the better part of the evening testing the 530. Its terrible. Out of 6 shots in the following conditions listed below only 1 tracked.

Target was a Mig-21 at 16500 ft, clear day, no background clutter, 40 miles apart staring point, with a head on aspect ratio.

One issue is that I could not get the radar to find the Mig-21 until it was under 20 miles. The radar and the missiles need tweaking badly.

The Magic was not much better. 6 shots, 2 hits, tail on range 3 miles x2, 2 miles x2 and 1 mile x2. The 2 mile launches are the ones that hit. I can get better performance out of the AIM-9B and I am not exaggerating. (ok maybe a little bit there) :)

Currently, both S530D and Magic 2 have twice the supersonic drag of comparable US or Russian missiles.

If you want to know why ask ED...

If anyone is willing to test this, please try the following file (replace it in DCS World/Config/Weapons ... make sure you back it up first or you won't be able to play on public servers!)

This makes the above adjustments to the 550. I'll point out that the tuning is not perfect, so a bit more fine work may be required, but you should see an immediate change in performance.

Do you have a 1.5 version of this?

If anyone is willing to test this, please try the following file, I'll point out that the tuning is not perfect, so a bit more fine work may be required, but you should see an immediate change in performance.

Spent a bit of time testing your missile mod and compared to the stock Magic 2 my initial impressions is that your Magic 2 has more energy and better performance in general.

However that said i have deliberately been firing your Magic 2 at less that optimal angles in my simple one on one dog fighting against a MIG-29 and i think that it's still struggling to pull "G" and turn. I have been using the AIM-9 mod for comparison and the AIM-9 in my opinion tries it's dam-nest straight off the launch rail to pull that "G" and get the kill.......the R-73 is similar and maneuvers very aggressively when it has to.

The Magic 2 always hesitates initially off the launch rail for half a second and then starts guiding, if you fire from more favorable angles and distances then this is not so much of a problem.

I don't know that much about missiles, but looking at the design of the Magic 2 and the amount of canard and fin area that it has i'd imagine that it's a very capable and agile missile..... i think that your Magic 2 needs more "G" pulling ability.

The seeker head in the Magic is also very poor, probably the fact the the radar slaving not working is not helping matters. Many a time i was comfortably behind the MIG-29 with a perfect view up it's tail pipe and my Magic 2 was not seeing it, almost as if the ground crew had forgotten to remove those protective seeker head covers !!!.

However to be fair the seeker heads on the AIM-9 and R-73 aren't that much better, sometimes they lock onto the target instantly... sometimes they don't and invariably the guns then become the best option.

However i understand that the adjustments you made in your mod were not concerned with the seeker head and my above comments are just my observations.

In general i prefer your Magic 2 over the stock one and will continue to use it.

Thanks.

Take two.

Keep in mind that this includes most of the missile mod for other missiles as well, and it also adjusts the 530.

@Bidartarra No, I do not ... sorry. It's not impossible to make, I just have limited time.

Changes made for the 550:

- Decrease control lockup from 0.5s to 0.3s

- Adjust thrust profile to accurately reflect the real profile

- Adjust seeker gimbals and seeker slew speed to something more reasonable

missiles_data.lua

Mirage verses MIG-21

Just fired off twenty of your Magic 2's with the new .lua file and only 4 four hits.

Nearly all of my shots were from the rear hemisphere (MIG's 4/5 'o' clock position).

The Magic leaves the rail, tracks nicely until the very point of impact and then loses it and passes behind the MIG.

MIG was deploying countermeasures and so i removed it's two CM pods to see if that made a difference. Unfortunately the MIG is still deploying flares even through it has non fitted ??.

Possibly the new seeker/slew limit adjustments are causing these near misses ??

A Tacview would help here. I think I made the seeker adjustments to be superior to what they used to be, but I may have goofed somewhere.

MiG 21 chaff/ flares pod selection in ME is cosmetic.

You have 2 sliders to select chaffs/ flares quantities.

I manually edited my missiles-data.lua to reproduce drag, lift and thrust values, without touching seeker, in 1.5.2 and it gave good results Vs MiG 23 in quick action (interception)