Wind effects

Hey guys. I have a question about the effect of wind in game.

I'm an A-10C newb. I had years of flying in AF, but years ago. I have a custom put with a warthog and saitek pedals, so there are some oddities in my configuration but generally nothing crazy.

I find the effect of wind on landings challenging to say the least. I often find my TVV drifting out of the view of the HUD. Keeping 'er straight during takeoffs is possible but requires a lot of coordination. I often wondered to myself why mission planners put so much wind into training missing, figuring to myself that I guess it's fair to test us during training.

I am currently working on EFATO mission from maple flag and find it damn near unflyable with one engine. I'm using so much rudder to keep straight flight coordinated, that as my speed or configuration changes the effect on pitch is dramatic, I end up oscillating chasing various parameters and honestly half the time right now end up out of control and flipping on to the deck.

I'm realize how much this sounds like I am just a crappy pilot. I MAY be, but with my experience and equipment I am really struggling to believe this is supposed to be THIS hard. So I cross referenced the 5 m/s wind in the mission briefing with wind references online and found that is "light gusts". WTF!? So here I am.

So has anybody heard of any configuration options or hardware which has increased the effect of wind? Does any of this sound familiar to anyone coming from AF?

Help wanted, this is getting really embarrassing and frustrating to be having so much trouble with basic stuff when there is so much fun stuff coming up (I hope!).

Some tracks to illustrate my struggles

Maybe these will help. First one was single engine. Tried to abort and totally lost control. Second one was dual engine sanity check and even that was sloppy (but maybe would have worked had wingy not flown into me!).

Attachemtn attempt #2

Attachment's didn't go. Trying again.

Tacview-20150705-213652-DCS.txt.zip

is it possible for you to go into the configurations menu of your computer and then check if your devices are calibrated correctly? a 5 m/s wind should not deviate an a10's course so much that it's velocity vector goes of the hud. Do you have any troubles with a 0m/s take off? Is your plane assymetrically loaded? I'm sorry but I can't open tacview files on this computer, but atleast you could rule out any hardware issues.

Coordinated or Centerline?

Finally had a chance to fly again tonight.

First discovery was that I had setup highly non-linear rudder curves to make fine steering easier, but with one engine out and using the more extreme edges of the rudder's range it was highly reactive which complicated things.

But, question #1: Is it normal to experience significant roll when applying rudder in single-engine flight? In AF I recall rudder keeping the Falcon relatively level, and mostly yawing. In a warthog I do get expected yaw, but I find I need to fight a roll with opposite stick or trim. Feels almost like it's balancing on a point and with significant rudder yaw it's almost falling off balance.

Question #2: It isn't wind, but rather the yaw caused by the single engine that is my challenge. What is the priority during single engine flight? If I attempt to maintain coordinated flight according to the slip-ball, my TVV drifts way off the hud, worse at slow speeds. But if I use the rudder to keep the TVV on the centerline, I am in way uncoordinated flight. I've attached pics of the two options.

And lastly my advice from practice: Flying with trim is great under normal circumstances, but in these emergency circumstances, less trim, more "just fly" cause things change fast and chasing those effects with trim is not reactive enough.

First discovery was that I had setup highly non-linear rudder curves to make fine steering easier, but with one engine out and using the more extreme edges of the rudder's range it was highly reactive which complicated things.

Thats one of the major downsides to curves and why its advisable to keep a curve as small as possible. I think I might use a curve of 5 or so on my rudder but not more. In crosswind and engine out conditions I need maximum resolution at a part of the axis range that I rarely use otherwise.

But, question #1: Is it normal to experience significant roll when applying rudder in single-engine flight? In AF I recall rudder keeping the Falcon relatively level, and mostly yawing. In a warthog I do get expected yaw, but I find I need to fight a roll with opposite stick or trim. Feels almost like it's balancing on a point and with significant rudder yaw it's almost falling off balance.

Yaw will induce a rolling effect and in fact all banked turns require some yaw input blended in to coordinate the turn. You can in fact turn only with a rudder input because it will bank your aircraft and if I recall correctly there were control issues with early F-14s that saw them using mostly rudder and little roll to initiate certain types of banking turns but I can't comment in detail on that.

In any event yaw will cause a roll and countering it is part of using all three surfaces to coordinate flight. The reason the Falcon doesn't do this I assume is because its a FBW aircraft with computers doing most of hte work to coordinate flying. An F-16 pilot then rarely needs his pedals for anything but crosswind landings and other specific maneuvers that require a human finesse.

All above commentary subject to review by more informed individuals however.

Question #2: It isn't wind, but rather the yaw caused by the single engine that is my challenge. What is the priority during single engine flight? If I attempt to maintain coordinated flight according to the slip-ball, my TVV drifts way off the hud, worse at slow speeds. But if I use the rudder to keep the TVV on the centerline, I am in way uncoordinated flight. I've attached pics of the two options.

For instructions on single engine flight refer to this document which is based on the real one for the A-10: http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=29

It contains this commentary:

During single-engine operation, failure to use sufficient rudder can result

in large sideslip angles and yaw rates. Large sideslip angles will produce

excessive drag, loss of airspeed, and excessive sink rates. It is critical to

maintain coordinated flight using the rudders and slight bank into the

good engine to prevent sideslip buildup during single-engine situations. If

altitude and the situation permit, power reduction on the good engine may

be required to arrest excessive yaw buildup. If sideslip is not arrested, it is

possible to create a condition where the yaw rate becomes so large that

there is insufficient rudder available to correct the sideslip, and the aircraft

can depart controlled flight. Increased power settings must be led by

timely and coordinated rudder inputs.

It is definitely one of the most challenging things for controlling an aircraft so it naturally requires a lot of specific training in real life and more in sim when we have our natural limitations to contend with.

Great response, thanks so much

Another thing: the Saitek pedals aren't up to the task of matching the Warthog. I use Saitek pedals & recommend 'em to simmers on a budget, but if you're using a Warthog, you should be using Crosswind or Simped with them, not Saitek.

Saitek pedals are only recommendable for being "good" for ~$120. They are far from being a great controller, so you might want to consider getting better pedals which allow for more fine control. By all accounts, the Crosswinds are excellent, though closer in price to the Warthog.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=119419

(Don't even think about CH. Similar center precision to the Saitek pedals, and much worse ergonomics. Not remotely worth the price tag.)

So your saying Saitek pedals aren't good

So your saying Saitek pedals aren't good

Well, not neccessarily. Echo38 is right. I have the Saitek Pro Flight pedals. They are adequate, if you get them for less than 150 bucks. They are clearly a step up from a twist grip. I had to set slight curves for the WW2 birds, however. If you have money to spend, buy a higher quality product. If you just want pedals, they are okay. Not bad, just okay.

What about Saitek combat rudder pedals

The combat pedals are what I have so curious to hear some feedback on them. I certainly agree they arent premium but ive never considered them part of the problem.

There's nothing wrong with Saitek pedals. I fly with an X52 for cripes sake. Make do with what you got. The pilot is the real difference and the settings are the next most important factor.

The only time the gear is the real issue, assuming it meets minimum requirements for usefulness, is when it doesn't behave correctly. Otherwise its all about setting it up and learning to use it.

What about Saitek combat rudder pedals

I'd say they're overpriced. Never buy a piece of plastic-contruction (and by "plastic," I mean "has plastic where metal should be") simming equipment for over ~$150 (these days, anyway--prices go up over time). If you have the budget to buy the more expensive plastic pedals, then don't; instead, wait a little longer & save up for something really good, with all-metal construction, made by someone who flies sims as well as making equipment for them. You'll find it's worth it; I've never once heard one of my simming buddies or students express regret for buying a pricey-but-suberb controller. Always the opposite.

Again, Saitek pedals are only recommendable for being "adequate" for ~$140. And that only applies to the cheapest ones, because the more expensive ones are still only "okay" but are approaching the next price bracket. So, if you want cheap-but-serviceable, the ~$140 Saiteks are your best bet, at present; if you want good quality, then save up ~$350 for the good stuff.

There's nothing wrong with Saitek pedals. I fly with an X52 for cripes sake. Make do with what you got. The pilot is the real difference and the settings are the next most important factor.

There's plenty wrong with Saitek equipment. It's plastic, it's imprecise, the spring doesn't feel like real aircraft controls, and it doesn't keep well with extensive use. Of course, you can say that for most simming equipment (including popular brands like CH & Logitech), so it's a bit relative. There are few choices, and Saitek pedals are at the top until you go up into the "next bracket" ($300+, meaning Crosswinds, or something similar, like Simped, or those Russian-manufactured pedals with a V in the name, that I can never remember).

So, yes, Saiteks will do the job, "reasonably" well (for commercial mass-produced gaming hardware, anyway), for a moderate cost, and that's why I use them & recommend them to simmers on a budget. But, it isn't true that there's nothing wrong with an SPJ, or lower-end pedals such as these.

"It's the pilot, not the equipment" is as much of a myth as the notion that having high-end equipment will make you a great pilot. It's a combination of both. A poor craftsman might blame his tools, but even a master cannot do much with tools that don't work right. And an SPJ--or plastic spring-centered pedals, for that matter--doesn't work right (that is to say, work like the real aircraft controls). Not nearly as precise, missing the tactile sense, etc. etc.

With simming equipment, eventually, if you practice long enough, competitively, you get to a point where your equipment is holding you back (compared to what you could do with real aircraft controls). That point comes sooner rather than later with shoddy controllers. And not only does inferior equipment put a cap on your success, but it makes the learning process unnecessarily troublesome from the beginning. I've had too many of my virtual flight students, whom I convinced to upgrade, tell me that it made all the difference. And I could see it, as well, in their flying (and gunnery stats). There's a reason why most of the top-scoring VFPs prefer the same two sticks and the same two pedal sets.

Bottom line is you always want the best equipment for your price range, and although that sometimes means using sub-optimal equipment (I myself am, at present), that should only happen if you can't afford better. Any simmer who cares about flying enough will want to be aware of the benefits and detriments of one's options, and get the best he can for the price range he's limited to. "Make do with what you got," then, only applies to people who have no money to spend on simming, or who don't care to fly as well as they can.

Gear elitists will insist all sorts of stuff, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP is not up to the task of extracting the necessary performance out of his existing rudder pedals to justify something that costs $300 or more.

You can land an A-10C in a crosswind just fine with Saitek pedals. Thats a fact. If OP has problems they are either related to a fault in his gear or in his technique. I don't think I'd be recommending he wait to learn to land his airplane until he can navigate the waitlist for any of the superior options you listed.

Sim racers have all the same gear factors relevant to them. Most drive with spring based brake pedals that relate in no way to how real cars operate. If some guy shows up saying he can't brake at the end of the Kemmel straight without flat spotting his tires or losing it on corner entry I don't tell him that he's being held back because he hasn't gone and bought some Fanatec Clusport pedals.

I repeat (and amend), there's nothing wrong with Saitek pedals other than build quality. There's merely a whole lot better with the more expensive options. But we can keep this subjective pontificating rodeo going further if you desire.

You can land an A-10C in a crosswind just fine with Saitek pedals. Thats a fact.

Yes, it is. It's also true, however, that it's easier (and more similar to the real thing) with higher quality controllers. Hence my objection to the original statement. "There's nothing wrong with medium-quality controllers" implies that there's no good reason to upgrade.

@the OP: so, to conclude, if you have a fair budget for entertainment, and really enjoy virtual flying, then you'll want to get a good pair of pedals. MFG Crosswinds being the ones recommended by the most highly-experienced flight sim enthusiasts, at present. If you don't have the money, the Saiteks will do, but it'll be harder & less lifelike than if you had better gear. On the bright side, the cheapest Saitek pedals are the ones I recommend to those who can't afford Crosswinds (I can't, myself, currently).

Either way, good luck! Echo "Gear Elitist" 38, over & out

To be honest... I don't think i would be satisfied with the mfg crosswinds either. im not buying any more flight gear until something that has good quality and force feedback comes to the market.

To be honest... I don't think i would be satisfied with the mfg crosswinds either. im not buying any more flight gear until something that has good quality and force feedback comes to the market.

To get anything that really feels like a real aircraft stick/pedals under any circumstances, you're looking at custom stuff that costs $1000 or more. AFAIK, there's nothing like this that's commercially mass-produced, but every few years I read about hardcore simmers who also happen to be handy with machinery, who manufacture & sell stuff like this on a very limited basis.

Dunno who's doing it now; there's a high turnover rate. These little high-quality makers tend to quit a few years after they start, because manufacturing simming equipment in their basement machine shop was originally a hobby, that started taking up too much of their life, with a backlog of orders piling up. IIRC, that's what happened to Simped, as well as that one $2000 FW 190 stick.

It's a shame, too, because some of these crazy little custom jobs are brilliant. In the latter case, the maker claimed to have mechanisms in place to replicate the feel of mass balances in the control surfaces, and since it used actual cables, there was no need to try to simulate the cable-pulley feel. Cool stuff, if it works as promised, but way out of my price range to try out & determine whether or not it's worth the money.

"There's nothing wrong with medium-quality controllers" implies that there's no good reason to upgrade.

That's your interpretation. The implicit meaning in the context of the thread is that there's nothing wrong with them for the purposes of learning to fly a sim aircraft and any person who cannot adequately control their aircraft with perfectly serviceable Saitek pedals is not in a position to ponder an upgrade.

I honestly don't think its hard enough to be worthy of the comparison if we're talking about the A-10. For the more rudder happy prop planes I'd be inclined to agree more. The yaw damping in the A-10 however makes even sub par pedals relatively easy to use.

You don't have to master your virtual bird with sub-optimal controllers before considering getting something more close to the real deal. That progression ("first learn on hard mode, then move on to real mode!") isn't a natural part of the learning process; real pilots don't have to deal with it, and a sim pilot shouldn't have to, either.

More difficult /= more realistic. (In this case, the increased difficulty is less realistic--I can tell you from personal experience that it's a helluvalot easier using real aircraft stick/yoke & pedals than plastic gaming ones.) The only reason you should be limiting yourself with unrealistically-clunky controls is if you can't afford better.

I don't know why we're even having this argument. I think we've both said enough that the new guys can figure it out for themselves. Echo out.

dear god....

my saitek pro combat pedals have been a god send and true performers for the A10c and Ka50. Run no curves seems to help. I agree with pfunk it all about settings and the establishment of muscle memory. Sure i imagine the crosswind are good but common it takes like a year to get them so not worth it. Virtual pilots choices no need to demonize a set of pedals that perform just fine.

Just to offer another opinion: I've had the Saitek Pro Flight pedals and they were okay-ish. As a matter of preference, the foot-rests were too close to each other for my taste, but other than that they worked as advertised.

I also had Simpeds and they allowed more fine-tuned rudder input which was especially useful for the helicopter modules. I currently have MFG Crosswinds and they're even more precise, I especially like the accuracy of the brakes.

So, would I buy the Crosswinds again? Sure.

Would I recommend them? It depends. Breaking down the amount of time I spend flying various DCS modules both on- and offline, these controllers come down to a relatively good bang-for-the-buck ratio, so for me they were/are worth the investment.

I can praise their precision and configurability all day long, but ultimately, it's like a Porsche over a VW Beetle. Both get you from A to B, one of them just does it more quickly and more comfortably (I think; I never sat in a Porsche and I'm not even fond of the brand, but I guess the comparison is kind of universally understandable. On a side note, I never sat in a VW Beetle, either ;)).

Neither makes anyone a good driver, they're just two different cars.

----

I read on these forums that we flight sim enthusiasts tend to advertise expensive gear as if spending all that money didn't mean anything, thereby discouraging people with less money available to them. I think this kind of criticism is entirely valid and we should be careful not to advertise certain types of hardware as "necessary" or "unavoidable" or some such.

Of course I value the Crosswinds, but if I was on a tight budget, the Saiteks (to just name one brand that has been previously named in this thread) would do just fine, and if they were out of reach a twist grip like on the X52 would do just fine, and if that was out of reach, controlling the rudder via "x" and "y" keys would work just fine as well. Neither way is "bad" or "wrong", there's just "less comfortable" and "more comfortable" IMO.

I use CH pro-pedals and they work fantastically, no curve either. Be gentle practice often!

I use CH pro-pedals and they work fantastically

CH pedals are much too close together for fighter pedals, and the center precision is also lacking (as it is with the Saiteks). The Saiteks are much closer to a real fighter's pedals, in terms of dimensions. For this reason alone, I'd recommend the Saiteks over CH any day. (Saiteks also can be placed directly against a wall, without rendering them unable to yield full rudder & full brake simultaneously--unlike CH, which require a board or chocks to be placed behind them, reducing legroom if the desk is against the wall.)

A real fighter airplane always has pedals that are wide-set, the "fighter's stance," rather than close-set, "the ballerina's stance." It's about stability & leverage. A person is better at keeping his balance when his legs are apart than when his legs are together, all else equal. I've seen inside the cockpits of dozens of real fighters, and none of them has close-set pedals like CH & Logitech. They all had wide-set pedals like Crosswind, Simped, VKB, & Saitek. There's a reason for that. What's sufficient for an airliner or Cessna 150 often isn't good enough for a fighter, where precision matters more.

In addition to the ergonomic issues, exactly 80% of the CH products pieces I've examined hands-on came defective in some fashion (even when not counting the outer-edge hardware dead-zones, which defect seems to be common to mass-produced plastic joysticks, regardless of brand). On the flip side, CH products do age better than some of the alternatives (other than the potentiometers); my Saitek pedals loosened up & got sloppy much sooner than my CH ones did. But that isn't enough to make up for all the downsides (including the CH's potentiometers instead of Hall sensors).

Bottom line, once more, is that you can learn to fly well with Saitek pedals--or even CH--but it will be unnecessarily difficult. It is easier, and closer to reality (and you'll have a higher success cap), if you get something higher quality. I don't know why some of you insist on fighting me on this & trying to trick the new folks into believing that stuff like CH & Saitek are good controllers. They aren't (although the Saitek pedals do have good value for their price). So, hopefully, for the last time: new fliers, get the Saiteks if you can't afford $300 pedals. But if you want quality, and can afford it, then go with the Crosswinds. Don't let anyone tell you that you have to buy Crosswinds, sure, but also don't let anyone tell you that the Saiteks or CH are just as good. It simply isn't true.

I agree completely. The pedals in my SA-227 are almost 10 inches apart and its certainly no fighter but your completely right. I can only speak on the CH pedals because that's what I've always had. I am contemplating getting a new set, not sure which ones yet but I would like to have some good ones to use with the up and coming 4th gen fighters.