F-15C WVR

I know this has been kicked around on the forums a lot.

The problem is, the responses are generally like "If you flat scissors you will loose to a flanker" or "Take him out in BVR"

This is not as helpful as what I'm looking for.

I've also seen "Playing against AI isn't very good training, just because you can shoot down AI doesn't mean you won't get wrecked online"

 

This is where the problem lies.

 

I can't shoot down the AI.

Even set to "average" in WVR, I can't shoot down the AI.

I know BVR is easier, That's not the point.

 

If he dodges my AMRAMs and we merge, then what? Give up? Pop flare and chaff, jink and prey? Eject so he won't but a IR skeeker through your canopy?

 

I know the F-15 is an energy fighter. How do I use that to my advantage? How to I use all that thrust to get WVR kills?

 

What I need is a resource, some training, videos of a pro, instruction.

For the love of god I need Instruction.

 

Is there anyone who can fight WVR in this aircraft? Can't someone post some track files, a youtube video, a written tutorial? A half-washed out doodle on a bar-napkin photographed with a Nokia "cameraphone" from the 1990's? Anything more that a quick quip vaguely referencing "Boom and zoom" with no explanation on how to implement this tactic?

 

I don't mean to sound like a D-b*g here, but I have tried everything I can think of to get an edge (not that EDGE:music_whistling:) on the Flanker, to no avail.

 

I just need someone to give me some useful information.

 

And then, Finally, we will have a resource for all the other would-be fighter pilots who just can't get a grasp on this.

 

If you'v learned how to get WVR kills in the F-15, please post something here we can use to learn how to do it too.

 

 

 

In the interest of fairness, I have to say that the community has been endlessly helpful on every other question I have had regarding this Sim. You can look at my forums posts, I've asked a lot, and always gotten great answers. And many times more than that I've read threads others have asked the same question I have, and never had to ask myself.

 

I'm just asking for something usable, something with substance, something that can really help a lot of people.

 

What I'd really love is a simple, bottom up approach to learning the BFM, and how to use them in this aircraft.

I'll give you a napkin with the most common mistakes:

 

1) Don't try to merge above M1. Seriously, don't.

 

2) Maneuver in relation to the bandit.

 

3) Be aware of your excess or lack of energy and fly accordingly. If too fast, using nose high maneuvers is a good way to sustain it while not GLOCing your dude. If too slow, you can use nose low maneuvers, although this isn't effective in the long run. Try to regain energy.

 

4) Stay above 350 knots.

 

5) Better turn early than late in the first merge.

 

6) Identify the relative position, prepare for it. If you know your only option to merge is a split S you want to be slower than usual. If you have to climb you should probably start faster than usual.

 

7) Find the guy. No, not on the instruments.

I could post a track later maybe but here lets make it as simple as possible. How about three foolproof steps to a WVR kill:

 

1) get eyesight on bandit and keep it until the bandit is blown up! (lose sight, lose the fight)

 

2) turn as hard as you can into the bandit. Pull hard enough so you don't overspeed and gloc at full burner. Bleeding speed is a much smaller problem than overspeeding. If you manage to keep your airspeed anything between 250-400kts youre off to a great start :)

 

3) when the target presents itself, SHOOT! Take the gun shot regardless of the angle. Don't wait for a "perfect position", just kill the target first chance you get. Remember to use any weapon you have.

 

Don't think too much. Don't think of "energy fighting", "corner speed", or any other too complex approach if the basics are not handled well. Don't plan the fight, it usually doesn't go the way you want it.

 

The basics are keeping eyesight, turning hard enough INTO THE BANDIT (not to the side or away, always into if possible), and hitting the target when a shot opportunity is presented.

 

Once you handle basics well, and are facing a relatively skilled opponent (not AI) then you might wanna start thinking of the more "finesse" aspects of dogfighting.

 

What I see in many pilots is they try to "finesse" when they haven't mastered looking, turning, or shooting well enough for the finesse to matter. And these are improved by practice, not thinking or reading ;)

I could post a track later maybe but here lets make it as simple as possible. How about three foolproof steps to a WVR kill:

 

1) get eyesight on bandit and keep it until the bandit is blown up! (lose sight, lose the fight)

 

2) turn as hard as you can into the bandit. Pull hard enough so you don't overspeed and gloc at full burner. Bleeding speed is a much smaller problem than overspeeding. If you manage to keep your airspeed anything between 250-400kts youre off to a great start :)

 

3) when the target presents itself, SHOOT! Take the gun shot regardless of the angle. Don't wait for a "perfect position", just kill the target first chance you get. Remember to use any weapon you have.

 

Don't think too much. Don't think of "energy fighting", "corner speed", or any other too complex approach if the basics are not handled well. Don't plan the fight, it usually doesn't go the way you want it.

 

The basics are keeping eyesight, turning hard enough INTO THE BANDIT (not to the side or away, always into if possible), and hitting the target when a shot opportunity is presented.

 

Once you handle basics well, and are facing a relatively skilled opponent (not AI) then you might wanna start thinking of the more "finesse" aspects of dogfighting.

 

What I see in many pilots is they try to "finesse" when they haven't mastered looking, turning, or shooting well enough for the finesse to matter. And these are improved by practice, not thinking or reading ;)

 

Stuge, I think your advice is not useful to the OP:

don't read,

don't think,

pull as hard as you can...

 

That is utter tripe and sounds like me when I first started!

 

WVR is about energy and efficiency. As Pete Bonnnani says in the Art of the Kill, there is no silver bullet to WVR and sometimes you are at an unrecoverable disadvantage. There is no "counter" to every move. It has principles to adhere to, that's it.

 

Those principles are in the video, no point repeating them.

 

Some obvious stuff?

It was said by Blaze. I could add some even more silly crap I suppose?

Did you drop your bags? That's a beginners error for sure. You arrive, drop your bags and have full internal fuel. The Sukoi has at most half fuel, so you entered heavier for a knife fight.

Corner speed for an F-15 325-420. Adjust for weight.

Spend speed and altitude for turning the nose, turns with gravity to help are faster.

Keep him in the front part of your 3/9

Anticipate his movement and move to that, not following pure pursuit until shooting.

Inside his circle?

Turn at the elbow, don't chase lead like a missile, you need to be in his plane to get better shots.

Ugh...could carry on - watch the video.

 

A track can be discussed, the rest is conjecture and random advice.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Pikey
youtube link failed

Stuge, I think your advice is not useful to the OP:

don't read,

don't think,

pull as hard as you can...

 

That is utter tripe and sounds like me when I first started!

 

 

spot on with this one. I love it when an F-15 tries to merge with me using only the art of "bank and yank". The SU-27 can fly slower and turn tighter than the F-15. The margin is small, but the Flanker is docile enough at low speed that it is very easy to leverage. I had a situation recently where I suprised an Eagle from the side as he crested the mountains southwest of Nalchik, and I didn't have to fire a shot: He went full-dirty (airbrakes, gear, and flaps) to try and slow down to get inside my turning circle... and fell right out of the sky like a brick.

 

To the OP:

The best thing you can do at the merge in an F15 is to launch an AIM-9: This forces me (the flanker) to defend against the missile. I have to pop flares (makes me easier to see, if you have that problem) and forces me to make hard maneuvers (bleed energy and potentially open my six to you).

 

Like the guy in the video says: winning in ACM is all about creating problems for the other guy faster than he creates them for you. In the F-15, you have the ability to do this going into the merge with your more-reliable missiles.

Only stuge is most likely way better at the game than you guys, so he may know something.

You misunderstand me. My advice was meant for the person who has trouble even shooting down AI planes.

 

All the theory or energy management or tactical geometry in the world doesn't save you unless you can, like i said:

1) keep sight

2) keep turning even half well in the bandit's direction(this includes not overspeeding and not spinning the plane)

3) hit with your weapon when it counts.

 

If you do these three things very well, then the guy who doesn't loses, regardless of his informational prowess :)

To Pikey: the obvious stuff may not be so obvious for the new guys.

 

Dropping tanks is very sound advice, the performance boost this gives seems far less than obvious to many. Especially in BVR. Drop the tanks!

Forcing the other guy defensive is the number one priority in WVR fight (just like in BVR) and you do it by pulling your guns and missiles to bear on him first. He's turning ability or energy doesn't matter when you get positional advantage as unless he performs effective (bleeding energy and angles) defensive maneuvers he's toast. Saving energy just sets you up as the defensive guy. I'm not advocating bleeding all the energy in the first turn but positional advantage is better than energy advantage as you can then force the other guy to lose his energy with defensive maneuvers or shoot him down if he fails to go defensive.

 

Eagle can stay in Flankers six no problem until he gets the kill (same applies to Flanker behind Eagle) if the pilot can do the things Stuge mentioned and also avoid overshoot (Don't get too close, slow down if you need to.). The only option for Flanker to escape is out-turning the Eagle but that makes the Flanker relatively easy target. If you can't shoot him down when he makes a break turn you are in for role reversal.

 

The attack window entry by lag turn is mostly useless against Flanker as unless you can threaten the Flanker to constantly jink using guns you can't keep up the turn with him and you end up defensive yourself. If you end up in a situation against a Flanker where you might use lag turn you are better off with taking the snap shot opportunity and then bugging out (unless the bandit needs to be finished off after the snap shot).

 

This also gives a good rule of thumb for the Eagle for merge criteria against a Flanker. If you can't start the fight from positional advantage (ie. threaten him with your weapons while the Flanker can't threaten you) you should bug out before the fight even starts as the Flanker will get the positional advantage before you and all your energy is useless or even a liability after that.

 

AI flankers can be shot down with simply turning hard towards them and then gunning them down. All you need to do is to not bleed your speed below 250kts. The hard turn approach is most effective with 1-circle flow (turning towards the nose of the bandit ie. in the same compass direction after merge) as the AI likes to preserve his energy regardless of position.

Only stuge is most likely way better at the game than you guys, so he may know something.

Amen

I can't shoot down the AI.

Even set to "average" in WVR, I can't shoot down the AI.

I know BVR is easier, That's not the point.

 

If he dodges my AMRAMs and we merge, then what? Give up? Pop flare and chaff, jink and prey? Eject so he won't but a IR skeeker through your canopy?

 

I know the F-15 is an energy fighter. How do I use that to my advantage? How to I use all that thrust to get WVR kills?

 

What I need is a resource, some training, videos of a pro, instruction.

For the love of god I need Instruction.

 

Since Flaming Cliffs 2 specific fundamental differences in the tactics of close air combat does not appear. In contrast with new PFM Su-27, a new PFM F-15C did not change the tactical decisions in the F-15C.

Su-27 - highly maneuverable at speeds up to 650 km/h when H<6000 m. Medium-maneuver at speeds of 650-850 km/h. And slightly maneuvering on M>0.9.

Its features are disclosed in the medium and low altitudes.

F-15C - very fast. Low-maneuverable at speeds up to 600 km/h. Mid-maneuverable at speeds of 600-750 km/h. Highly maneuverable on M>0.82.

His strong at medium and high altitudes with the implementation of energy maneuvers.

 

Some videos.

 

Guns only.

F-15C vs Su-27

 

Just PROMO 2x2 guns only )))

 

Our stream of tactical approaches and methods air combat: one F-15C vs two Su-27 - guns only (only russian)

 

Our stream of tactical approaches and methods air combat F-15C with AIM-9M and R-73 (only russian)

 

Just for looolz. Old FC2 - F-15C vs Su-27 guns only. )))))))))

Related Question here: If you enter merge at a nice, fast speed such as M>=.9, would it work to just blow through the merge and extend away forward? The Sukoi would make the turn and bleed energy while you zoom straight away. Would you be able to extend far enough away out of the SU's effective missile range before he can bring his nose around 180 degrees?

I know BVR is easier, That's not the point.

 

No, it isn't easier, you just don't realize it because the game doesn't help you realize it. When in the air, you're flying BFM - EVERYTHING comes down to the very same basics.

 

I know the F-15 is an energy fighter. How do I use that to my advantage? How to I use all that thrust to get WVR kills?

 

...

 

If you'v learned how to get WVR kills in the F-15, please post something here we can use to learn how to do it too.

Stop trying to learn it by flying BVR and then merging. Set yourself up with some guns-only scenarios. Start by fighting F-15's (you start with similar planes, then move to dissimilar).

 

Read useful things like: http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/T45/P-1289.PDF

 

It's hard to pick out the information you need from that, yes, but it's in there.

Start thinking turn radius, turn rate, turn circle. THINK and then fly a guns-only scenario and see how what you thought about applies. If things go wrong, or right, analyze what happened: Is it because you did things right, is it because you did things wrong, got lucky/unlucky etc?

Did you fly your parameters correctly?

 

But before all that, learn how to fly your aircraft. Learn how it performs at various altitudes, airspeeds and weights.

 

The skills you learn will transfer to any aircraft - the numbers won't, but with the skills you gain you can adjust for a particular aircraft's performance.

 

I'm just asking for something usable, something with substance, something that can really help a lot of people.

 

What I'd really love is a simple, bottom up approach to learning the BFM, and how to use them in this aircraft.

Does not exist. BFM is hard for a reason. Good BFM involves a lot of thinking before and after the fight. You won't get better otherwise. You'll just be mediocre like most online pilots. There has been some good advice in the thread, and some bad. The 'Art of the kill' video is a great starter, but it's just scratching the tip of the iceberg. Dell Murrey's videos are great too, hopefully you can gain some information from them.

 

A tip: Always watch bandit aspect angle, the antenna train angle (ie. angle from your aircraft's nose to bandit), and closure. And of course all those turn circle parameters mentioned above. All these things combined tell you what the bandit is doing, but you have to THINK about them before and after the fight.

 

Perhaps he can help you: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=142566

Edited May 5, 2015 by GGTharos

Yep. Just stick him on your six, keep the burners on and keep going. Be ready to defend a T/ET shot, but you can extend out of R-73 range.

Just keep in mind that he has that helmet sight, so you had better perform the separation exactly right :)

 

Related Question here: If you enter merge at a nice, fast speed such as M>=.9, would it work to just blow through the merge and extend away forward? The Sukoi would make the turn and bleed energy while you zoom straight away. Would you be able to extend far enough away out of the SU's effective missile range before he can bring his nose around 180 degrees?

Related Question here: If you enter merge at a nice, fast speed such as M>=.9, would it work to just blow through the merge and extend away forward?

 

Do you want to have time to escape from the missiles R-73 to the time until the Su-27 will turn 180 degrees? I correctly understood?

Yes, you have time to leave the zone of permissible starts. But just if Su-27 don't use 'W'. If them use that, you can't escape from R-73. Try maximum speed for your altitude.

Yep. Just stick him on your six, keep the burners on and keep going. Be ready to defend a T/ET shot, but you can extend out of R-73 range.

Just keep in mind that he has that helmet sight, so you had better perform the separation exactly right :)

 

Interesting, I'll have to try it sometime. Would it be better to extend in a slight dive to gain more speed, a climb to use the F-15's better climbing ability and gain altitude, or straight and level?

If you can dive to speed up, do it. Don't climb unless you have a good reason to.

 

Generally you want to be 1.5nm with negative closure for a good separation before the missile is launched. If you're closer it will reach you and evading it gets more dicey.

 

Dell Murrey brings up a good point as well. And do keep in mind that if that flanker's at the right speed, he can sustain 30dps just to get his nose around. You have to be at good speed and time your escape pretty much perfectly - you need to be doing a nautical mile every 6 seconds and hope it's enough.

Do you want to have time to escape from the missiles R-73 to the time until the Su-27 will turn 180 degrees? I correctly understood?

Yes, you have time to leave the zone of permissible starts. But just if Su-27 don't use 'W'. If them use that, you can't escape from R-73. Try maximum speed for your altitude.

 

Yes, escape out of certain death missile range so you have a chance to keep running. A turn with 'W' would bleed a lot of speed though, would the missile be able to do all the work on its own without airspeed help?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Ultra

The R-73 uses the new missile FM, so launching it at slower speed does present a disadvantage. But that disadvantage may not be bad enough to help you out :)

Dell Murrey brings up a good point as well. And do keep in mind that if that flanker's at the right speed, he can sustain 30dps just to get his nose around. You have to be at good speed and time your escape pretty much perfectly - you need to be doing a nautical mile every 6 seconds and hope it's enough.

 

So would it just be better to try to duke it out?

Wow, I have to say i'm impressed so far with the response. Thanks guys.

I can't really give you a yes/no. It really depends. Do you have a wingman? Does he? Is there a reason why you shouldn't stay?

 

Did you merge with an advantage or at least, are you in a position where you can gain an advantage quickly, either for missiles or guns? Have you thought about whether you're doing a one or two circle fight?

 

A Su-27 performs better at turning at low altitudes than an eagle, and the opposite is true at high altitudes. Yes, the in-game plane has a nasty roll-off tendency in the transsonic regime right now, but that should get fixed, so just remember, single axis inputs when transsonic, do not blend, and your chances of avoiding a roll-off are much better. You'll need to be in that regime at higher altitudes.

 

So would it just be better to try to duke it out?

I can't really give you a yes/no. It really depends. Do you have a wingman? Does he? Is there a reason why you shouldn't stay?

 

Did you merge with an advantage or at least, are you in a position where you can gain an advantage quickly, either for missiles or guns? Have you thought about whether you're doing a one or two circle fight?.

 

How about this situation: merge, 1v1, no other battlefield constraints, no altitude advantage, both at 12k feet, your speed: M=1, SU's speed:M=.85, two-circle fight.

Loadouts: You - no tanks, 2 aim-9's, 2 aim-120c's

..............Him - no tanks, 2 r-73's, 1 r27et, 1 r27er

Similar fuel levels

 

Not to put you on the spot :D, but what would you do in this situation?

AIM-9/120 in the face, best two-circle after merge with lots of flares and look-down (NOT a split-S, rather a slice-back, throttle at MIL or a little less, burner once the speed starts dropping below 450, but back to MIL if his aspect is 135 or less) to AIM-9 shot in the face again and then to HAGS if possible and then run ... if possible :D

 

Really that's not a good merge as far as I'm concerned. If I'm merging with a flanker I want to merge with an advantage from the start. He's already at a very nice speed and he will win a one or two circle easily. It's pretty tough, because you'll be getting shot at first, and usually he who shoots first, wins.

Edited May 5, 2015 by GGTharos

AIM-9/120 in the face, best two-circle after merge with lots of flares and look-down (NOT a split-S, rather a slice-back, throttle at MIL or a little less, burner once the speed starts dropping below 450, but back to MIL if his aspect is 135 or less) to AIM-9 shot in the face again and then to HAGS if possible and then run ... if possible :D

 

Really that's not a good merge as far as I'm concerned. If I'm merging with a flanker I want to merge with an advantage from the start. He's already at a very nice speed and he will win a one or two circle easily. It's pretty tough, because you'll be getting shot at first, and usually he who shoots first, wins.

 

I liked your first response better: "run" :lol:

So pretty much pray he messes up or you get lucky.

At what altitude would you start to win a turn fight?