Radar Alcohol - Why?

Hi,

Just wondering why this mig-21bis radar was designed to be cooled by alcohol. Wouldn't it be better to use some sought of radiator/ram air cooling system etc? 20 something minutes of on time kinda hurts, saying that the fuel range hurts also

I really don't know the real answer. As technician i think alcohol cooler doesn't need a lot o space and alcohol is effective enough. An other reason is maybe lack of knowledge on how to make an other cooling system which is small enough, not heavy and maybe not super expensive.

So the crews can partake.....

Its Soviet tech. It doesn't have to have a reason!

This is used for cooling.

Because Russia, that's why.

If I had to guess:

- It's cheap.

- Easy to manufacture.

- Easily transported and readily available (even in remote locations).

- Won't freeze in subzero conditions.

- The coolant leaves behind virtually no residue or byproduct that needs to be dealt with.

Given the sheer number of MiG's being produced and punched out as quickly as possible, I'm sure economics, speed, and efficiency were of primary concern.

That's not a search radar, so it's supposed to be operated only for target acquisition. 20 min is more than enough for the job.

ok so searching for active hostiles always comes from ground radar or airborne radar (not mig21bis). So patrolling is pretty useless unless its visual or from mission control so to speak.

If I had to guess:

 

- It's cheap.

- Easy to manufacture.

- Easily transported and readily available (even in remote locations).

- Won't freeze in subzero conditions.

- The coolant leaves behind virtually no residue or byproduct that needs to be dealt with.

 

Given the sheer number of MiG's being produced and punched out as quickly as possible, I'm sure economics, speed, and efficiency were of primary concern.

what about the nations that still use the mig-21bis. im guessing the radar systems have all been updated to something more modern?

im guessing the radar systems have all been updated to something more modern?

Correct.

The Indian Bisons are running the Phazotron Kopyo airborne radar.

what about the nations that still use the mig-21bis. im guessing the radar systems have all been updated to something more modern?

I know IAF (India) put out the MiG-21 Bison which has a much more modern and capable radar.

From: here

"Equipped with the Phazotron Kopyo (Spear) airborne radar, which is capable of simultaneously tracking 8 targets and engaging 2 of them with semi-active radar homing air-to-air missiles, such as the Vympel R-27. The radar also enable the fighter to deploy active radar homing air-to-air missiles such as the Vympel R-77 when an additional channel is incorporated."

The Bison is actually an upgrade package standardized for the MiG-21Bis. They are set to serve until 2025.

The F/A-18 also uses a liquid radar cooling system.

So I don´t think it has been so uncommon.

FinnJ

The F/A-18 also uses a liquid radar cooling system.

 

So I don´t think it has been so uncommon.

 

FinnJ

yes true but this is a closed system and does not run out after 20-30mins of use. its also used to transfer heat to the fuel system etc.

In VietNam we're still using a large number of MiG-21 bis (about 100+ still in service). Sometimes technicians use these as radar cooling liquid. works like charm.

j/kj/kj/kj/k :pilotfly:

I can only speculate as to the reasons why. Probably because such a system was small, and easy to maintain. Just about anywhere can get their hands on it.

I read the memoirs of the MiG-25 pilot that defected to Japan and he recounted that the MiG-25's radar as well used the same liquid, and indeed, the crews would drink the stuff.

Of course, if you're using coolant and no fuel, that looks suspicious. So they'd take the fuel and dump it and doctor the logs to show flying time that never took place so when they placed another order for more coolant, and the matching fuel, Supply wouldn't ask questions.

That was a good read....forget his name. I remember when that happened, 1976 I think

Seriously when I first heard about this alcohol radar cooling thing I thought it's just some kind of joke because its soviet/russian origin.

But then again why not use ram air in higher altitudes, I mean its pretty cold up there.(Engineers would know better than me though)

:megalol::megalol::megalol:

Great, now I'm hungry...

May or may not be relevant to the migs, but found this article on alcohol as a refrigerant:

http://www.refrigtech.com/Knowledge_Center/knowledge_kiss.html

I am assuming the mig would have some kind of heat exchange loop similar to a refrigeration cycle, so perhaps the migs would have suffered from the same thing.

I also read reports of engineers drinking it, for real. However its not actually "drinking" alcohol, so... death. There are better refrigerants and coolants out there now.

Whether there is any truth in this or not I cannot say, but we were very aware in my BAOR days that Russian soldiers were reputed to remove antifreeze from their vehicle radiators, filtering it, and then drinking it for the alcohol content.

Another very dubious, highly dangerous practice, and one I would hope was just propaganda and far from reality. All the Russian military men I have met are highly professional, highly skilled, and highly motivated.

Great, now I'm hungry...

:thumbup:

That was a good read....forget his name. I remember when that happened, 1976 I think

Viktor Belenko. And yes most airplanes in USSR used alcohol for cooling for the reasons mentioned.

-Very effective

-Minimal space used by system.

-Minimal weight.

-Low toxicity. (coolant used by western countries is VERY toxic)

-Minimal handling procedures with no special training.

-cheap and easy to produce.

Cons

-Have to be replenished after each flight.

-Additional facilities needed for storage.

-Additional equipment required by maintenance personal.

-Cooling liquid was consumed by base personal as a virtually free alcoholic beverage replacement.

May or may not be relevant to the migs, but found this article on alcohol as a refrigerant:

 

http://www.refrigtech.com/Knowledge_Center/knowledge_kiss.html

 

I am assuming the mig would have some kind of heat exchange loop similar to a refrigeration cycle, so perhaps the migs would have suffered from the same thing.

 

I also read reports of engineers drinking it, for real. However its not actually "drinking" alcohol, so... death. There are better refrigerants and coolants out there now.

As a matter of fact, the alcohol used for cooling purposes was of a better quality than most vodka consumed. It was perfectly safe to drink. A nikcname for the Mig-25, for example, was "the flying bar" because of the very large quantities of the stuff it could carry due to its size. Which is why the Mig-21 has a fairly limited usable amount of time for the radar: small aircraft, less space for storage of equipment liquids etc. But what we were told back in the 80's is that the USSR, Which was using intercept tactics based on the GCI model, would scramble a flight of interceptors, they would be guided manually or automatically in the vicinity of the target, and only then the pilots would turn their radar on, lock a missile and destroy the target. That would minimize or eliminate the chance of being detected by the target before they could get into a good firing position. Based on that, there was no need to develop a long distance radar and it would be used for fairly short amount of time.

It could be interesting to know that Canada was using, more or less, the same method. We had what we called the "Dew line" and the "Frost line". The were two lines of radar stations spread across the country form coast to coast. The "Frost line" was fairly up north (hence the name) and was what we referred to as the the first line of detection. The "Dew line" was lower and was the second line of detection and was used for monitoring traffic in the lower part of the country. So for the same reason as the Russians, very large area to cover (they have the biggest country in the world and we happen to be the second!) budget restrains etc, it is way more cost effective to have lines of long distance radar to monitor airspace intrusions, with fewer squadrons of interceptors based in strategic locations, than having a bunch of units spread all across the map. Our respective countries are too big, period. So, say a intruder was detected, they would scramble usually 2 planes (in peace time), they would be vectored towards the appropriate direction. The intercept officer sitting in the back would do a search in passive mode and when he was fairly sure that they were in good position, he would turn the attack radar on, lock his target, fire, go home, have a beer at the officers mess. The plane we used was the somewhat crappy "Voodoo" or CF-101 (one-o-wonder). But that thing was a frikking fast climber if not a good dog fighter.

P.S. My apologies to the OP, it seems i have "stolen" his thread:music_whistling: