Beyond Visual Range Struggles

I get close range combat and that tactics associated with that. That stuff is not hard for me. My issue is that I can't seem to get the hang of BVR combat.

First is shooting missiles. I usually go out there and loose off one missile at a time against targets medium/long distance. None of them ever hit, yet I always seem to be good fodder, no matter who I am facing or what I'm flying. AMRAAMS, Sparrows, 27s, 77s, no matter what I can't hit s***. What is my issue here? The really good pilots seem to usually disengage when fired upon, which brings me to my next point.

I do not understand defense whatsoever, primarily because I can't find any info on BVR combat tactics in the first place. The bandit can disengage and break lock with no issue, sometimes while guiding a misisle, All I can ever do is hit the weeds and hope the Missile does not keep up. That fly perpendicular crap doesn't seem to work for me, it usually just makes me feel like an idiot. The closest thing I have come up for a real tactic is to pull up hard then pull down hard while dumping chaff at smart times, and that doesn't always work, target/weapon irrespective.

There seems to be a few key tactics that separate the good from the flying bulleyes, but whenever I try to apply them, I end up with a face full of missile. I guess the best way to reply to this is a lesson on how to effectively engage BVR. I do not want a military technical manual, that is not useful to me here. I want people to elaborate tactics that can help me become better without having to bust open one of those damn things.

BVR and WVR are similar in some respects. Managing your energy (speed, altitude) is important in both.

On missile range, don't try to get a kill as soon as you're in range. Wait until the target is at about half of max missile range or less. This makes the missile harder to avoid. You may need to fire earlier to keep the enemy on the defensive, but don't expect a kill when doing that.

BVR defense basically boils down to bleeding the missile of energy (which is part of the reason why your up and down maneuver works) and/or evading missile lock (chaff and beaming). Try flying up and down to bleed the missile of energy while you fly perpendicular, but also try not to lose sight of the enemy while doing so.

Search some of the threads, they have more info like this.

So basically, maneuver hard in many directions early in the missile's flight to make it turn hard and fall over?

And for shooting, I can do that fine in most engagements since the guy ends up half my max range away anyways before firing authorization is given, especially with 77s (though those are not as hard to use as people say, they just have tiny motors). I usually carry Sparrows since I find they guide better than AMRAAMs in most situations and they discourage dumping a million into the air like AMRAAMs do. Probably because you have to get close to them in the first place before your radar lets you shoot whereas ACs just let you shoot whenever. I swear my mantra is gonna end up Add the 120C-7, the 7P, the 9X, and JHMCS. That will solve a lot of people's issues about US Missiles stinking, which I share to a degree

So basically, maneuver hard in many directions early in the missile's flight to make it turn hard and fall over?

Yes, the harder you maneuver, the harder the missile must maneuver, but the missile only has so much fuel. This won't work at short range of course.

Add the 120C-7, the 7P, the 9X, and JHMCS. That will solve a lot of people's issues about US Missiles stinking, which I share to a degree

Both US and Russian missiles are under performing. We probably won't get the C7 (the AIM-9X is sort of in the sim), but devs are still tuning missiles. In the future performance may be different.

"The Aim9X is sort of in the sim " .... how so ?

BVR is a bit underwhelming right now. All the radar guided missiles are not tracking properly and losing airspeed too fast, but the 120s are especially bad right now. I have probably half a dozen ACMI files where the 120 will just decide to stop tracking. Most of the time at less than 2NM while I still have a solid lock. I seem to recall one of the testers or moderators saying there is a bug with chaff, but I think it's more than that.

Try this video to help understand what notching is.

"The Aim9X is sort of in the sim " .... how so ?

It's there but no player usable aircraft can use it. There was a thread about modifying the .lua files to get it added to the F-15 with some moderate success.

I usually carry Sparrows

I think this is part of, if not from my experience, your main problem. You are carrying a semi-active missile, meaning you need to keep a target locked for your missile to track. Consider switching to the 120-C, which has its own active radar. This will provide you with several immediate benefits:

1 Lighter, more maneuverable missiles that help reduce overall plane weight vs similar amount of AIM-7s carried.

2 Active radar means you can afford to lose lock on a target, either by their maneuvering or your perpendicular flying and have a missile still track. They may be able to beam or notch you, but not you AND a missile at the same time.

3. TWS launching, which is impossible with Sparrows. A missile launch from TWS does not give the distinctive missile launch warning. That missile shows up on an enemy RWR ONLY once its own radar turns on. This means less time to go defensive for your enemy. TWS provides its own benefits, such as providing a quick overview of each unit's altitude.

4. The 120B/C + TWS enables you to engage 2 targets. Lock on each enemy once in TWS. Get your first firing cue. Once you fire on T1, the next firing cue and info you get will be on T2. Thi can help you when going against 2 enemies. I use it to great effect in splitting a group of enemies as I close distance.

5. Contrailing USUALLY begins somewhere above 25k altitude (in feet). Fly just underneath, at perhaps 24000-24900 to sit at a happy medium between the weeds and the ceiling. This will let you sit high enough to comfortably engage units below you and at your level, while possibly allowing you to launch on units at the ceiling, even if it's just to force a defensive posture as you continue closing distance and gaining appropriate altitude.

ecm and altitude: ECM lets a radar know your general direction. If you are in TWS, and you see an ECM, it does not give a distance/alt. Use this to your advantage to change altitude and course when you think you are being tracked in TWS or STT. If your enemy is at 10k and so are you, and he is closing and may have shoot cue soon, ecm on, and climb to about 24k. If he fires on you before he closes within the ECM burn-through range, he and his missile will be disappointed to see you much higher than expected.

On flying perpendicular: the point of doing this is twofold: escape the radar's search cone. force missiles to expend energy constantly as it is tracking you. When simply moving around against another plane, flying perpendicular may make them lose lock, allowing you to turn back toward them and approach from the new heading. I try to maintain a lock by keeping them at the very edge of my own radar cone. When you are moving in relation to an enemy launch, putting the missile on your 9 or 3 o' clock makes the missile turn. Continue to keep the missile on your 9/3 by continuing to gently turn. as this time passes begin to pull harder and harder to keep yourself on the edges of the missile's view.

Pursuit: So you've launched your missile. You're tracking the target. The target is now moving away from you, perhaps to RTB after expending their armament or taking damage. Unless you KNOW it's ONE. ON. ONE. Do NOT pursue. A retreating unit is usually retreating toward a friend. If it is absolutely mission-critical that you pursue/down this unit, track them in TWS to maintain awareness of other units. If you are part of a group, then pursuit may be more palatable, but the need for awareness stays the same. One unit in STT, while the others maintain a TWS lock or simply using RWS to find any threats at all. Overall? Consider it a win: you've taken the airspace for yourself or your side at the moment.

If you are in an F-15 and are within a good distance for the enemy's missiles, it may be time for you to jettison fuel tanks. It isn't something you may be actively thinking about, but yeah, the added weight makes a big negative difference.

Afterburn and Russians: EOS..is a mother****er. If you are in AB and going against an RU pilot, they will gain an EOS lock, which means they can now track you without their radar. If you are being tracked by radar, you are in AB, and they turn their radar off, expect them to be tracking with EOS. Pull out of AB, change directions(do not expose your tail if possible, as EOS detection is stronger), and re-engage.

Most of this advice, I feel, carries true as an F-15 or one of the RU planes( 27, 29C/G/S, 33). The main difference being the RU 27-ER missiles are active, meaning when going defensive after a launch you need to maintain a lock. As I said above, putting an enemy at the very edge of your radar scope is an option, even if it is not a perfect perpendicular movement. What I do in an RU plane is snake my way towards them, dropping chaff as I make my turns, and using ECM on every other direction change.

I hope this helps you out pal. I remember starting in dogfighting when I got FC3 and needing help too.

Operational

range

• AIM-120A/B 55–75 km (30–40 nm)[3][4]

• AIM-120C-5 >105 km (>57 nm)[5]

• AIM-120D (C-8) >180 km (>97 nm

You shouldn't abandon the aim7 completely though. If you want to fire into a merge of buddyd an enemys don't do that with aim120, they don't iff and may go after your allies. For these engagements 2 aim7 are still a nice weapon. And they can achieve good hittingpercentages if fired under nice conditions.

You shouldn't abandon the aim7 completely though. If you want to fire into a merge of buddyd an enemys don't do that with aim120, they don't iff and may go after your allies. For these engagements 2 aim7 are still a nice weapon. And they can achieve good hittingpercentages if fired under nice conditions.

Flood mode is pretty interesting too!

Operational

range

 

• AIM-120A/B 55–75 km (30–40 nm)[3][4]

• AIM-120C-5 >105 km (>57 nm)[5]

 

• AIM-120D (C-8) >180 km (>97 nm

Oh come on now, you know too these stats are useless. :D

To the OP: use forum search, select titles only, hit BVR.. you'll find a couple interesting things. Install tacview, start experimenting. As long as you don't have a personal instructor there's no better than tacview.

Thats right.Even with instructor,install tacview .The best way to understand what happends around you.You wont belive :)

Thats right.Even with instructor,install tacview .The best way to understand what happends around you.You wont belive :)

It's literally the only only thing I think everyone agrees on, TACVIEW HELPS. Properly debriefing yourself in Tacview, however, is a completely separate issue. The core issue is that, even with Tacview, it is often difficult or outright impossible to deduce and properly correct your mistakes without the proper training and knowledge about what doing it the right way looks like.

You have to understand why exactly you failed, because, who knows, you might have accidentally done 90% of everything correctly, but the 10% got you killed. You didn't understand that though, and saw only that you died, so you scrapped 100% of what you did and tried something different for the sake of trying it different. The results are going to be the same, every time, because you will have no idea what you are doing right, and what you are doing wrong.

The bottom line is, you want to be a real BVR hero, join a squadron that specializes in that sort of combat. You won't really learn anything otherwise. The 104th f.e. is REALLY good at this sort of stuff.

I do not want a military technical manual, that is not useful to me here. I want people to elaborate tactics that can help me become better without having to bust open one of those damn things.

The simplest way to get knowledge is: you must to be a member of a good squadron!

What is tac view and instructor? Serioisly, I am new to this f15

The simplest way to get knowledge is: you must to be a member of a good squadron!

Any squadrons willing to train noobies from scratch?

I think a better advice would be to read alot yourself first. What all the symbology is and what all the abbreviations mean. And after getting some of that knowledge join a squadron. So you won't be looking up everything they say. I think it would save some frustration on both sides. Most people are really nice. But osme can get a little bit grumpy when asking questions they think you should already know when starting up that plane.

QUOTE=bigcountry;2017650]What is tac view and instructor? Serioisly, I am new to this f15

Tacview download Virtuoz's Lair a trusted site for all things sim. combat related.

http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-download-en.php

I do not want a military technical manual, that is not useful to me here. I want people to elaborate tactics that can help me become better without having to bust open one of those damn things.

So basically your saying you want to leech off all our hard work sir? ;)

I think a better advice would be to read alot yourself first. What all the symbology is and what all the abbreviations mean. And after getting some of that knowledge join a squadron.

As Winchester said, best thing to do is to increase your knowledge about your aircraft and your weapons. BVR is a science, its very complex and lots of variables however with most things in life... knowledge will give you POWER!

Never underestimate the importance of 'knowing' your aircraft (and its limitations!), its systems and your weapons, once you have empowered yourself with this knowledge you have to then get yourself up to speed regarding the enemy's systems and weapons.... sadly there is no short cut.. only hard work!

BVR is not about who has the best hands and feet... its about being able to take in lots of information very quickly.... and then make good decisions!

Just ask my main man from 410 Sqn RL... he will tell you all about it ;)

You don't want a manual, and you can't search, either (because we've had this discussion at least three times in the last week, with three separate threads in this forum detailing pertinent information).

Pardon me if I don't rehash.

Sick of BVR

I've been flying the SU-27 for a couple of weeks. Doing research, trying to figure out flight patterns, evasive maneuvers and all that.

But Right now I'm actually getting quite frustrated by the damn fact that NOTHING seems to be working. The notch, energy fighting, turn fighting, beaming the missile ( biggest joke ever in my honest experience. ) and plenty of others.

The RWR goes silent, so I assume I've broken contact or I've been fired upon by a heat seeking missile. Big joke. RWR goes silent for like 7 to 10 seconds, still get hit. Guess what? Aim120. I've been Beaming it's original location Gaining & losing altitude flaring&Chaff. ( Still haven't had the slightest visual on any missile because there seems to be NO smoke trail after the first 2 seconds of it being fired.

Or if I do hear the RWR, same story. try notch, or beaming, out turning it, out climbing it, plumbing it to the ground but nooooo still get hit.

Right now my average score is 10 deaths to 1 kill m'right? Did get a Mig. or a louzy Ground attack aircraft.

Bit frustrating when there's absolutely no improvement for weeks, despite hours and hours of research, trying, and putting effort into it.

The same results seem to occur wether I'm flying at 30.000ft or 30ft to 50ft.

Close A2A however I have noooo problems or what so ever. Doing pretty good on the contrary.

I would terribly love to have some explanations right here. Do I just seem to be the terribly unlucky noob facing the 5 years experienced fighter pilot everytime or what?

You don't want a manual, and you can't search, either (because we've had this discussion at least three times in the last week, with three separate threads in this forum detailing pertinent information).

 

Pardon me if I don't rehash.

Pretty much.

Sorry to everyone out there but this is just the truth, if you don't bother to read the manual or look for information that IS out there on the forum (even if just the basics), then don't expect to do anything in BVR.

The RWR goes silent

Have a closer look at the RWR as a device. You'll see why it goes silent once you've read it's limitations..

I've been flying the SU-27 for a couple of weeks.

For the record, it took me weeks to get comfortable with online fighting. It took my years to get good at it, and I'm still not the best (but I do a lot less dieing these days).

But Right now I'm actually getting quite frustrated by the damn fact that NOTHING seems to be working. The notch, energy fighting, turn fighting, beaming the missile ( biggest joke ever in my honest experience. ) and plenty of others.

Nothing works, or things work but not all the time? There is no 100% success method, and if you're flying online solo know that this can make it harder to get a kill because things end up being so symmetric.

The RWR goes silent, so I assume I've broken contact or I've been fired upon by a heat seeking missile.

Or you put the enemy outside the RWR's field of view, or they maneuvered to get out of the FOV.

Big joke. RWR goes silent for like 7 to 10 seconds, still get hit. Guess what? Aim120. I've been Beaming it's original location Gaining & losing altitude flaring&Chaff. ( Still haven't had the slightest visual on any missile because there seems to be NO smoke trail after the first 2 seconds of it being fired.

Did you track the bandit the whole time? If you lost them then they could have simply snuck another 120 after you once they got into position in one of your blind spots.

Or if I do hear the RWR, same story. try notch, or beaming, out turning it, out climbing it, plumbing it to the ground but nooooo still get hit.

At a certain range, trying to out perform the missile does not work at all. Granted that range is shorter than it should be in the sim right now, but it still exists. If you get close enough, the missile will be able to reach you. Your only hope in that case is breaking the lock. Radar missiles tend to be harder to break from than IR though.

Bit frustrating when there's absolutely no improvement for weeks, despite hours and hours of research, trying, and putting effort into it.

How are you analyzing what's happening?

The same results seem to occur wether I'm flying at 30.000ft or 30ft to 50ft.

You may have been flying at 30000 feet when it would have been better to fly at 30 ft and vice versa.

I would terribly love to have some explanations right here. Do I just seem to be the terribly unlucky noob facing the 5 years experienced fighter pilot everytime or what?

It's hard to give advice without actually seeing what's happening.

If all you have is the sim, MP tracks are saved automatically. You can unhide all units in the track with some file editing and then watch your battles from any perspective you want. F10 view and missile view are pretty helpful.

You're making the mistake of trying to beat missiles instead of concentrating on staying safe and picking your opportunities smartly.

Your RWR is probably going silent because you're banking or diving over 30 degrees, this is the limitation of the receiver, in this situation your RWR is not effective.

With regards to facing off against vets in every engagement, i doubt it, you're probably getting tunnel vision on one bandit and getting bounced on by a second bandit that are not necessarily working together.

This ain't an FPS where you rack up the kills so first and foremost concentrate on surviving rather than dodging every missile and killing every bandit, that way you'll become a much better BVR pilot in the virtual arena,

As I think has been said missile effectiveness is being worked on. What I sometimes do is set reaction to threat on my enemy's to passive defence in the mission editor, on some at least, and with that set I can get bvr kills. It's not ideal and I guess it's cheating but while we have missiles that are not fully effective it feels a little less like cheating.