Slaw Device vs. Saitek Rudder comparison

Hey guys,

Here is a short comparison between my new rudder pedals from Slaw Device, and the old Saitek Pro Flight Rudder that I used for several years.

The thing is made from 3 materials: metal, rubber and electronics :) Going from the Saitek rudder, it feels like transitioning from clunky plastic joystick to brand new Hotas Warthog. As far as I can tell everything that moves is rotating on ball bearings, and all mechanical stops are protected by rubber bands. There is no loose play or "sticktion" anywhere. Accoring to the manufacturer, the electionics are top quality. I'm a layman in this area, but I can tell that there is absolutely no noise or deadzones on any axis. It's plug and play, the rudder calibrates itself automatically at startup.

Ergonomics. The rudder is quite customizable. There are:

- 3 spacing positions. On the photos there is the smallest spacing, and it is still more than the Saitek. You can set the pedals further apart.

- 4 positions for pedals angle. On the photos there is the lowest angle, brakes go almost horizontal when fully pressed.

- 2 positions for centering spring and 3 positions for centering arms. This gives 6 steps for adjusting centering force. You can also remove the spring completely.

- 3 positions for brakes resistance. Actually it's 6 because each brake pad is held by 2 springs each having 3 adjustable positions, but the differences are sublime.

The foot rests are very comfortable, also when used without shoes. There is no rubber on them, so they can get a little slippery, but if that bothers you, it's easy to attach something yourself. The base doesn't have any mounting holes, but most of its bottom is covered with rubber and the whole device weights about 6kg, so at least on a carpet they sit firm and you can't move them by accident when flying. The rudder works almost without noise, except for the rubber stops that tend to make a "plop" sound when detaching from metal. I applied some chalk powder on them to make them less "sticky" and it's quieter now. Note it's only about sound, not feel.

Copared to Saitek, it's not only more solid and smooth, but also has greater range of movement. Saitek pedals move about 6cm in each direction, Slaw device pedals move almost 9cm on the lowest spacing, about 10cm on highest. The brakes have about 2 times bigger rotation angle, and this makes a hughe difference in braking precision.

In the other rudder thread there has been a lot of talk about centering. I can't compare it to MFG Simundza rudder, but I'll try to describe what I have here. There is no mechanical detent in the centre, but rather a point of equilibrium, where all forces are equal. This creates a pronounced centre point when you're going fast from one direction to the other, like in dogfight. But if you move slowly (aiming, landing), there is no mechanical stop of any kind, just the point where you have to change the foot which applies pressure. It works very well at least for me, it gives good feedback that doesn't interfere when I want to make precise moves.

I tested the rudder in several simulators (RoF, DCS, FSX, BMS) and in every one it's a substantial improvement over Saitek. It gives better control during take off and landings, it's much easier to adjust braking power, you can aim precisely and the helicopters finally fly where I want. As I said I can't compare it with MFG rudder, but I think you can't go wrong with either of them. Both are made by passionate hobbyists and both are offered in the same price range. But you can't beat the full metal Bf-109 look :)

You can read more at manufacturer's thread at simhq: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3801659/1/Rudder_Pedals_like_BF109F

A bunch of photos:

And where to buy?

how wide is it?

That's very informative and detailed thank you very much! In the process of acquiring a new set of rudder pedals and balancing these vs the MFGs myself, I'm still undecided. If ever you got the time, a quick video showing its features and feel/noise etc would be awesome. Still, thanks for the nice feedback.

And where to buy?

Indeed! And price compared to the Saitek ones? My Saitek left pedal just broke - so if I can't fix it, it will be time for new ones and the Slaw ones look GREAT.

It's in the thread that I linked. 275 Euro plus shipping. There is no shop, you have to contact the guy who makes them directly. It's just his hobby.

Theres a few of these types of pedals around now and the thing i like about them over the current contender is that all the moving parts are easily accessible to keep them clean and lubed.

Truth to be told, I don't see anything here that requires lubrication, ball bearings are sealed and there are no other moving parts.

Thanks Some1.

Truth to be told, I don't see anything here that requires lubrication, ball bearings are sealed and there are no other moving parts.

Thanks that sold them to me then sealed bearings are good and having open access to all moving parts is good to over the Saiteks which just get the plastic rails all gunked up with fluff and stuff causing them to stick and bind.

A quick test in the workshop.

Sorry for the bad quality.

Man I wish I could afford those.

Any news on the F-16 style ones?

Man I wish I could afford those.

 

Any news on the F-16 style ones?

The project F16 stopped until the summer.

The project F16 stopped until the summer.

Maybe by then I'll be able to put some money down for them :D

You're doing great work, really. It was far too long a time where you could only really get Saitek or find some old Simpeds.

I'm really happy to see a product of this quality in our small market.

Slaw, very nice work. Great job on the engineering! would love to have a set of this in my future pit. :thumbup:

Slaw's pedals are absolutely amazing. They feel even more realistic than the Thrustmaster Warthog as far as quality and accuracy goes. The solid steel construction feels like you have something real under your feet.

I can't promote them enough. Any serious simmer should definitely give the a shot.

I hope the F16 ones come earlier than summer - can't wait to get them! How wide are the pedals on the smallest config?

A little update to my original post.

After using my pedals for two years without any issues, I upgraded their mechanism to the current version sold by Slaw, with cam and damper, like this:

This was actually a little experiment by Slaw, to see if his customers would be able to modify the pedals themselves. He made me a small upgrade package with the needed parts and guided me through the whole assembly process on Skype (no written manual, at least not yet). The upgrade is not very difficult to perform, but it's not easy either. It requires careful disassembly of almost whole pedals, removing the mounting arm and electronics, while at the same time being careful to not affect the axis with magnet that is used by sensor to read the pedals position. I spent several hours doing it, with Slaw assisting on the other end of the phone.

The new model has two differences that change how the pedals work. A Cam for centering instead of the original system with rubber pad, and an optional motorcycle damper mounted on top. You have to buy the damper yourself, they are pretty common on ebay.

Cam: to be honest I expect more from the cam alone. I mean it is an upgrade over the original mechanism, but rather a subtle one. The cam makes center point less pronounced, but not completely gone. You can still feel a little thump just to give you some feedback when you move through the centre point, and the pedals when released return exactly to the middle position by themselves. The cam also changes the distribution of the centering force. Now there's less centering force in the middle, and you have to apply more pressure the further you move from the centre. Slaw includes two cam shapes in the package, one with the more pronounced centre point, one with less and this one is advised for normal use.

Damper: now this thing really transforms the pedals. It gives you an option to fully control the pedals resistance, from subtle to hard to move, but at the same time you still have the smoothness of the ball bearing mechanism, without any "sticktion". Unlike the spring, which pulls in one direction, damper's resistance works both ways. For flying helicopters you can even remove the spring, which will disable the cam, and rely only on damper to provide a uniform resistance in the whole range of movement.

Unfortunately the damper I bought from the ebay has broken regulation screw, so I'm currently stuck at one pretty stiff setting until I get a replacement. But all in all, I'm a happy camper now, bring on the DCS 2.0!

Slaw pedals don't exist

While there's no doubt that these pedals are great, it really means nothing if one can't buy them. I see people saying others should give them a try, but they don't mention how I'm supposed to get that done as Slaw has stated that they refuse to take anymore orders and won't for any foreseeable future. While it's nice that you have them, no one else can purchase them so telling us how great they are and that we should try them is pointless,

Thanks for the update, it looks like an amazing piece of kit and was really well reviewed by Ars Technica too. Damper improvement looks like the go, got a link to ebay for that per chance? I think there needs to be more dampers, less springs in most simpits so keen to see the options.

Damper:

Do you actually mean a damper or just a dumper-like (the looks and layout) friction device. I'm asking because I've noticed some people/small companies sell their pieces fitted with dampers of significant dampening. There's no significant dampening in control systems. Not even in boosted ones. Not even in helicopters. WW2 fighters: Close to zero.

It's a gimmick. Some people even use gas springs. Ridiculous from the realism standpoint.

Not sure if you're referring to me Bucic but I'm talking about dampers, as anything which dampens an input as a form of resistance that's more consistent (I want to say linear) than a spring.

While there's no doubt that these pedals are great, it really means nothing if one can't buy them.

AFAIK the Bf-109 model like this is still in production and you can order them anytime you want, though there may be a waiting list. Maybe you've mistaken it for the F-16 model, Slaw doesn't sell that any more because it was too expensive and time consuming to manufacture.

Damper improvement looks like the go, got a link to ebay for that per chance?

It's a motorcycle steering damper, plenty of them in the 50$ price range.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1311.R1.TR6.TRC2.A0.H0.Xmotorcycle+steering+.TRS0&_nkw=motorcycle+steering+damper&_sacat=0

Damper:

Do you actually mean a damper or just a dumper-like (the looks and layout) friction device.

What's the difference? A damper is a friction device.

There is no significant dampening in a control systems but they are not friction-less. Every mechanism with linkage and hydraulic valves has some internal resistance. Besides, different people have different preferences, some want light controls in their sim, some want to have more resistance, in order to emulate the force you need to apply on the controls during flight.

It's a gimmick. Some people even use gas springs. Ridiculous from the realism standpoint.

Well, with that attitude, anything that is not full-size system with force-feedback is ridiculous from the realism standpoint. Unless you fly an Airbus or F-16.

I'm also an owner of the SLAW pedals and love them absolutely. Slaw is super friendly and supportive, can only recommend his service fully.

Not sure if you're referring to me Bucic but I'm talking about dampers, as anything which dampens an input as a form of resistance that's more consistent (I want to say linear) than a spring.

OK, but I'm curious about how do you use a damper to make a linear spring more linear. I'm not being grumpy here. I'm simply pointing out that the "well, I had a damper in my hands and it required force to move and it moved smoothly" type of knowledge is not enough to simply go out there, grab a shiny car piece, slap it onto rudder pedals and expect it adds to the realism.

What's the difference? A damper is a friction device.

The difference is substantial. In terms of mechanics they are simply different devices with, usually, different purpose. Dampers are usually viscous dampers which, in best case scenario, have damping >proportional to velocity of displacement<. In worst case scenario they even have different characteristic in different direction. That's the key thing and the very reason they are out of place in any sim controls. There is no significant damping in that sense in (even boosted) control systems.

The issue is simple. A device you introduce into a mechanism has a certain characteristic. If it does resemble a characteristic of a generic control system, it does add to the realism. If it features a completely wacko characteristic it does not add to the realism (e.g. for rudder pedals: a strong damper, a detent etc.). It only makes matters worse. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

So in summary:

A. the dynamic pressure on a control surface is replicable by a simple spring

B. the inherent control system friction is replicable by a simple friction component

C. dampers have no place in sim controls; certainly not in the way hobbyst use them

Well, with that attitude, anything that is not full-size system with force-feedback is ridiculous from the realism standpoint. Unless you fly an Airbus or F-16.

Oh, com on, isn't it too early into the argument to resort to reductio ad absurdum? ;)

Thanks for the review, some1! If not for your post I wouldn't have known that the pedals even existed.