SA-11 and the MPS-410

I was testing a mission using the Su-25T against the SA-11. I had already killed the search radar with a pair of Kh-58s. I turned back around and launched two remaining Kh-25Ls at two of the launchers and RTB'd to re-arm.

During the first engagement, I had the MPS-410 on. I turned it off when I headed to the airport. Re-armed and back in the fight, I did not bother turning the Jammer back on. I know the launcher on the SA-11 does have its own tracking radar but didn't think it would launch on me without the search radar.

I launched my Kh-25L and right before impact, I see a streaking missile heading my way. I break down hard and to the right keeping the missile off my left wing and pump chaff until the missile breaks lock.

I looked down at the jammer indicator light and confirmed that the jammer was off as I thought. I turned it on and made another run in. During this run, I was able to launch a missile at the launcher with nothing coming back in my direction.

I tried this two more times once with the jammer on and then again with it off. Again, I got the same results as before. I recieved a missile with the jammer off and no missile with the jammer on.

All of this to say that you can attack SA-11 launcher with little to no problems if you have the jammer on. With no jammer, expect a missile inbound.

I would have posted a track but the mission was an hour and 45 minutes long.

I will post one as soon as I get the next chance.

Well, I tried to re-create what I talked about yesterday and failed. :joystick: I tried it several times (jammer on/off) after work and no matter what I did the launchers keep coming at me. And this is after I killed the search radar.

At the end of the track, they just ran out of missiles to toss at me. I didn't know it at the time so I made a low level attack with Kh-25Ls.

SA-11_SEAD.trk

And this is after I killed the search radar.

 

Yes, launch vehicles are TELAR vehicles, ie Transporter Erector Launcher and Radar vehicles. They are capable of autonomous engagement, albeit with restricted parameters after the search radar has been eliminated.

Here is a recent thread about jammers.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100247&highlight=jammer

I agree with you and the majority of posters that they no longer appear to have an effect. My personal opinon is that this is due to an AI change made several versions ago.

Before the change rader SAMS shot at you from their max range. This made them very easy to spoof and empty them of their ready to fire ammo. I think the AI was changed so that now they hold fire until you are deeper into their envelope.

This made that little bit of closing range the TOAD jammer gave you vanish. By the time he's ready to fire you are already well within his ability to burn through the passive jammer and lock you.

On a side note, my understanding is that in RL the MPS-410 was tuned mostly towards defeating the HAWK.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId926428

Above is a nice read on Russian engagement radars, including the one's used in the BUK M1 Telar.

Careful though, lots of version's around so hard to say what version ED is modelling.

Thanks for that wealth of information! Both links were very good reads.

Jammers aren't doing anything to the Buk launch unit radars on my end.

I had also the same experience. I killed the Radar and command of SA-11 and then after some time the launcher fired a missile to me. My ECM was off.

once you take the search radar out, the launch vehicles will only keep the azimuth they were pointing at before the search radar was destroyed.

Did a bit of research today, and screwed around with game files.

GT.WS[ws].LN[1] = {};

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].type = 102;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].max_number_of_missiles_channels = 2;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].distanceMax = GT.sensor.max_range_finding_target;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].ECM_K = 0.65;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].distanceMin = GT.sensor.min_range_finding_target;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].max_trg_alt = GT.sensor.max_alt_finding_target;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].min_trg_alt = GT.sensor.min_alt_finding_target;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].reflection_limit = 0.18;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].reactionTime = 4;

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].beamWidth = math.rad(1);

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].maxShootingSpeed = 0;

-- own searching radar(2 targets) and external target designation from CC

GT.WS[ws].LN[1].depends_on_unit = {{{"self", 4}}, {{"self", 5}}, {{"SA-11 Buk CC 9S470M1"}}};

ECM_K is the value of interest here. I BELIEVE it means that the tracking radar is only able to achieve a solid track at roughly 65% of its normal distance, if the target is jamming when acquired (using the A-10's jammer at least).

The issue here, is that the Buk etc can often acquire you from beyond their maximum range, missile wise. I experimented today by changing the ECM_K of the Kub's Straight Flush radar to 0.3, and it was only able to acquire and engage me from 5.5 NM out. This is compared to its normal 12-ish miles.

I've no idea whether this is an accurate approximation of the jammer's ability (because its 0.65 by default for the Kub as welll, and 0.5 for the SA-3 even... you'd think it'd be a bit higher (or lower, numerically in this case ;) ) for old radars, rather than just sort of scaling as it does at a flat-ish rate)

So my theory is that for most TELAR systems, the tracking range is reduced on its current lock by the amount specified in ECM_K. So the A-10's jammer makes it "reroll" whether its able to acquire the lock it formerly most-definitely had. Keep in mind the radar's max lock-on range may very well be beyond that of the missile's range as well!

Honestly, it seems to me that older SAM's are too capable vs the A-10's jammer while new stuff (S-300, Buk) are a bit too vulneable (0.5 modifier for the S-300 and Patriot just seems a bit underwhelming. Its the same as the HAWK, which was jammed pretty damn soundly in the Iran/Iraq war)

I'm not sure how the MPS-410 compares to the A-10's jammer pods, so forgive me for any outright falsehoods in my statements. Rest assured, this post was made with the best of intentions :P Even glancing at the files is an absolutely eye-opening experience and gets alot of respect from me to the devs simply due to the level of detail to which so many of these systems are modeled!

I observed an SA-3 tracking radar (search destroyed) lock onto and fire upon an Su-24.

The SA-3 has also TV optical tracking which is just added in the last update.

My observation here.

9Sh33A Karat 2 television telescope

Many of the Russian SAM TRs and LNs have this TV optical tracking or a more powerful version of it. SAM complexes are more stealthy IRL than in the game but ED fixes this and makes your job more dangerous. Enjoy.