Notching & BVR Tactics, help for new fighter pilots (FC3)

Here's a Singleplayer track (MP tracks mess up missiles and other things for many reasons) I made of me fighting 1 v 1 against:

 

1. Su-27 with 2x R-27ER, 2x R-73, cannon, ECM

2. F-15C with 2x AIM-120B, cannon, ECM

3. same as 2

4. same as 2 & 3

 

I end up getting killed at the end by AIM-120B.

 

I am loaded out with max fuel (3 bags), 2 AIM-120C, 2 AIM-120B, 2 AIM-7, 2 AIM-9M, cannon, ECM.

 

Question is... what could I do better / differently to succeed?

 

At the end... when I die... I am having trouble determining if I have defeated the second AIM-120 and it is hard to know if I have notched because I am maneuvering and already low'ish.

 

Please reference this post http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1648748#post1648748

from @EtherealN on tactics if you want to understand some of the terminology / tactics.

[EDIT: reposting @EtherealN post on tactics in case his post moves or thread moves]

Beaming:

Putting the enemy missile "abeam", as in the nautical term. Effectively, he's on your 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock.

 

Notch:

This is a maneuver where multiple things are achieved - you place the hostile emitter abeam (note: EMITTER. If semiactive missile, the enemy aircraft, if active missile, the incoming missile), and you also ensure that the enemy emitter is in "look-down"; that is, you are on lower altitude. When done correctly, you will have the same doppler return as the terrain that is behind you in the enemy radar picture, and your aircraft will be rejected as ground clutter. Effectively - you are now invisible to that specific radar.

 

Reading energy states:

Energy is the money you spend to "do stuff". If the enemy you're about to fight is higher up and faster than you, he has way more "money" than you; and as per FC3, both of these "moneys" are transferred to the weapons on launch. So basically, he has a lot of energy to do stuff with (like pressing you, or defensive maneuvers etcetera), but you have less. This means that if the fight develops and both go defensive against each other's missiles, he'll still have an advantage on you afterwards.

 

There is more to this as well - it's not something you learn "easily". It takes practice, and mostd specifically, it takes GOOD practice. The problem for most people that "just fly" is that they don't train on specific things, and thus they have huge trouble with growing their skills beyond the basics. It's hard to do unless you have an IP through a virtual squadron or something like that.

 

Extending:

This is basically just making sure there is more distance between you and the enemy. For example you might decide to extend after a failed shot instead of getting yourself drawin into WVR or even a fully developed BFM brawl. If it's F-15C vs Su-27 for example, the F-15C does not want to go in there. There's things the Eagle can do there certainly, and an unskilled Flanker pilot will be eaten alive in BFM by a skilled F-15C pilot, but BFM is basically "Flanker Territory" and Eagles only go there if they really have to, because they'll be at a disadvantage there.

 

Point E on radar extremes:

After launching your weapon, turn to a side such that the target is only narrowly inside your radar scope. This means that range between you two close a lot slower (without forcing you to slow down, which would be suicide). If I do this, and you don't, you are dead. No if's, no but's, you are dead - you have successfully intercepted my missile with your aircraft. ;) This is extra important if you have only semis, while I have actives: once my AIM-120 has gone pitbull, I can go ahead and notch you to ditch your missile. However, if I didn't make sure to keep the distance but rather flew right into you (while you kept distance), your ER would have blown me up already... Another neat thing here is that if you find that you do need to notch - you are ALMOST there already! 30 degree turn - you're now in the notch! (As long as you've made sure you're lower.)

 

Missile distance:

Inner circle on your radar warning equipment in the Flanker, Mig and Frog indicates hostile emitter strength. This does not mean an absolute distance (there's no such thing as "3 lights = 4 kilometers), but you see when the emitter grows stronger and depending on type you can learn general guidelines through practice (or through joining a squadron and getting trained on it, which I would recommend, for example the 51st, 159th etcetera).

 

Going defensive:

Depends a lot on exactly how you mean but consider this:

 

1) Launch weapon.

2) Put target on radar extremes (60 degree left or right turn)

3) Dive as necessary to ensure you are slightly lower than the enemy.

4) If incoming enemy missile, dip a further 30 degrees in the same direction as previous. Missile is now defeated. (Works excellently against the Slammer, just note that in this case the angle might be slightly different since you need to notch the missile, not the enemy aircraft, and they might have become differentiated in azimuth by now.)

5) With missile defeated, go 30 degrees back - your target is now on scope again and you can keep firing.

 

Done perfectly, you are defensive only for a few seconds. However, takes a LOT of practice.

 

On aggressing Eagles, generally speaking - do not fight them 1v1. Bring a friend and attack from two directions (pincer him). Then, if he notches your missile, he is visible for your friend's missile... He cannot notch both of you. If numbers are even, you need to make sure you stay aggressive and keep him defensive. But really, this is something someone else should help you out with since I suck at the Flanker. (I never managed to wrap my head around it's radar display, used to fly Su-25 only in LOMAC and FC1, then F-15 in FC2. Still haven't decided on what'll be my FC3 bird.)

[/EDIT]

 

"Snipe"

Notching_BVR_practice.trk

Edited January 11, 2013 by arteedecco

Start with the idea that slow=dead and go from there.

 

Use Tacview for self-analysis.

Does Tacview work as well with FC3 as with A-10C?

Last version... YES.

Does Tacview work as well with FC3 as with A-10C?

 

Yes, but... I *believe* it has been causing crashes on the 104th server... what I was noticing is I would sign on... get about 3 minutes in (it varied) and then I would get disconnected always.

 

When I disabled tracking in Tracview... problem went away (so far). My total guess is that it's due to file verification on their end, but I really don't have a clue ... could be a red herring.

 

But yeah, Tracview works well and I run FC3 and DCS A-10C.

 

"Snipe"

See video in my signature below - it will help you visualize

The fights are very dynamic, but here's my general guide lines on the style i developed myself with lots of deaths and lots of reading on tactics and F15-C specifications. It keep me more or less winning versus most pilots (if i don't screw up).

 

1) Fly at 20 - 24 k feet. Scan mode TWS at range 80 miles, targeting reticle at 20 miles position (first horizontal line from bottom to top). As you fly constantly slew the elevation up and down so at 20 miles you scan from ground level, to 25 - 30 k feet.

 

2) When you see a target lock (in TWS mode) and fly straight toward it, at 24 k feet. Make sure you keep your targeting reticle on top of the target, that means moving it all the time as target gets closer. Constantly keep the radar range as short as possible without breaking lock to make that easier. Constantly adjust radar elevation to keep the target in the center of the beam.

 

3) You have 2 marks on the right side of the HUD as well as the radar screen. I won't get into detail on them, but one is the range of certain kill, the other is maximum possible range at the curent trajectory of your target. Wait until you get halfway between those, that gives a good kill chance without waiting too long. When you reach that distance, fire. Missiles shot in TWS mode do not give a launch warning to your target.

 

4) After you launch, engines idle, speed break on, and notch, to the limit of the radar beam, without breaking lock. You do this not to escape his radar lock, but to reduce closure rate. This increases your chance of survival a lot.

 

5) On the bottom left corner of the HUD you have 2 numbers counting down. When the left one reaches 0, your missile has engaged it's own radar and no longer requires you to guide it.If you get a launch warning before the left number reaches 0, you can afford to stay on course for up to 10 seconds (but that's cutting it close) until the timer reaches 0. At this point the missile shows up on your targets RWR / TEWS. The right number is time to impact. So, as soon as the left number hit 0, breaks off, full afterburners, and Split S (without stalling). I actually find it better to go in a vertical dive until i reach 400 knots before slowly pulling up.

 

6)Keep afterburners to full. if you do not have a missile on your TEWS, do an Immelman turn (that's like a Split S but toward the sky) to reverse course. If there is a missile, keep flying straight (or if you feel it's too close dive for extra speed) until it drops off your TEWS. then do the Immelman. Switch to STT (now it's fast paced and you can't afford to tinker with the radar direction) reaquire target and launch (if in range). As soon as the left number reaches 0, do Split S. you can see the pattern here.

 

Here are a couple of ACMI tracks of me in Flaming Cliffs 2. The tactics are the same in FC3. They are too large for the forum, so i put them on Mediafire. It's a one click download.

 

The aircraft to look at is labeled "Siskin" in both tracks.

 

Track 2

 

relevant section at time index 11:04:30 (+00:09:09) to 11:09:00 (+00:13:38)

 

Side note: When you are hit, going down, but manage to recover just in time, do NOT jetisson fuel tanks / weapons, because you don't know how your plane will react and may not have enough altitude left to recover. Example: 11:13:30 (+00:18:08) my aircraft slammed in a left roll and became unrecoverable.

 

Unfortunately to make the ACMI track i had to replay the .trk file but did it in fast forward and the events changed, so the rest is corupted.

 

Track 1

 

relevant sections at time index:

12:42:05 (+00:10:44) to 12:44:27 (+00:13:06)

12:50:50 (+00:19:29) to 12:54:52 (+00:23:31)

13:06:25 (+00:35:05) to 13:08:25 (+00:37:05)

In step 6 i mentioned "if you feel it's (the missile) too close dive for extra speed" - at the end of the second section this would have saved my life. i didn't realize it was that close.

track 2.rar

track 1.rar

Edited January 14, 2013 by Siskin

Ouch ... really? Speed is life. Fingers off the brakes. You're also nowhere near in the notch if you're keeping lock. Putting the brakes on decreses the distance the other guy's missile has to fly.

 

4) After you launch, engines idle, speed break on, and notch, to the limit of the radar beam, without breaking lock. You do this not to escape his radar lock, but to reduce closure rate. This increases your chance of survival a lot.

 

Just don't touch the brakes to begin with. And there's no need for a split-S either, although people really love doing it, the most efficient turn away from your opponent is a slice-back. Not having 400kt during this whole engagement ... yikes.

 

So, as soon as the left number hit 0, breaks off, full afterburners, and Split S (without stalling). I actually find it better to go in a vertical dive until i reach 400 knots before slowly pulling up.

 

No, do a slice-back. Better yet, do half a slice-back, roll out, check if there's a missile (because see, now you're near the notch) and go from there depending on whether you have to defend or not. Of course, if you're still wallowing around at 250kt with this brakes-on idea, you're dead :)

 

6)Keep afterburners to full. if you do not have a missile on your TEWS, do an Immelman turn (that's like a Split S but toward the sky) to reverse course.

God I love these tactics threads. Thanks for sharing @all, I am learning a lot :)

Speed is life.

Generally true.

 

However, too much speed, you overshoot, bandit gets on your 6, and bye bye life.

 

The point is, in different situations you need different speeds.

 

You're also nowhere near in the notch if you're keeping lock.

Very true. the purpose of a notch is to break target lock. In my strategy it's just to reduce closure rate. I only used the word "notch" because it's the easiest way to describe what i do.

 

 

Putting the brakes on decreses the distance the other guy's missile has to fly.

 

Not really. It's all about angles.

 

In a true notch, you are correct.

But if you keep a target lock, then you are actually still closing in with your own energy. You just translate some of the forward movement to side movement.

 

If it's hard to understand what i'm saying let me know and i'll draw some examples.

 

 

there's no need for a split-S

 

If you are flying fast, you are correct. a split-S would only slam you to the ground.

In my tactic the split-S is mainly used to gain airspeed, because as you said speed is life.

 

 

Not having 400kt during this whole engagement ... yikes.

 

 

 

The point of that maneuver is keep as much distance as possible between yourself and the target. Distance that his missile will have to travel after it's launched. When it's launched, you use split-S to gain speed and escape.

 

 

Of course, if you're still wallowing around at 250kt with this brakes-on idea, you're dead :)

I believe you misunderstood the tactic here. You don't fly throughout the engagement at stall speed. Please check the ACMI tracks to see this in use.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Siskin

Siskin, one way to reduce the size of your Tacview files is to open them up in Tacview and re-save them into its native format. It reduces the file size roughly 75-80%.

Oh thanks for the tip.

 

Re-saving them now, will edit the reply when done.

Generally true.

 

However, too much speed, you overshoot, bandit gets on your 6, and bye bye life.

 

The point is, in different situations you need different speeds.

 

We're talking about BVR missile combat; speed is life, always true.

 

 

Very true. the purpose of a notch is to break target lock. In my strategy it's just to reduce closure rate. I only used the word "notch" because it's the easiest way to describe what i do.

And you thus confuse yourself and anyone reading your advice. The term for what you're doing is 'crank'.

 

 

Not really. It's all about angles.

 

In a true notch, you are correct.

But if you keep a target lock, then you are actually still closing in with your own energy. You just translate some of the forward movement to side movement.

 

If it's hard to understand what i'm saying let me know and i'll draw some examples.

Yes, really. That missile is constantly turning in order to achieve a collision course while you're flying in the crank. Flying faster = more turning = more energy loss for the missile = more distance to fly as well. You're effectively accusing me of what you're doing now: One-dimensional thinking.

 

 

If you are flying fast, you are correct. a split-S would only slam you to the ground.

In my tactic the split-S is mainly used to gain airspeed, because as you said speed is life.

See, I like to fly at the F-15's combat speed - but I only do that because I like to follow the advice of the peeps who do it for real. You like to gain speed up to that combat speed in a split-S after giving up your combat speed. You're doing it wrong :)

 

We're not talking about a mach 1.5 sprint and crank to M0.9 here, you're talking about launching a missile and then slowing below combat speed.

 

The point of that maneuver is keep as much distance as possible between yourself and the target. Distance that his missile will have to travel after it's launched. When it's launched, you use split-S to gain speed and escape.

There is almost never, ever a need for a fighter to be flying at less than combat speed in a BVR engagement.

 

I believe you misunderstood the tactic here. You don't fly throughout the engagement at stall speed. Please check the ACMI tracks to see this in use.

I didn't misunderstand the tactic at all. It's a poor way of doing things that happens to work on virtual pilots who don't know better. Not something that people should be learning.
Edited January 14, 2013 by GGTharos

Not really. It's all about angles.

 

In a true notch, you are correct.

But if you keep a target lock, then you are actually still closing in with your own energy. You just translate some of the forward movement to side movement.

 

If it's hard to understand what i'm saying let me know and i'll draw some examples.

 

For a drawn example, see below:

 

 

Green is you.

Red: enemy missile when you are slow.

Blue: enemy missile when you are fast.

 

Note how the enemy missile travels BOTH a longer distance, AND has to turn harder (remember: after just a few seconds, that thing is a glider - any time it turns, it slows down and becomes easier to defeat).

 

Slowing down = suicide. ;)

I think the tactic by Siskin may work to a degree in a gaming environment, but faced with a realistic foe then you may be able to come out alive against one bandit and possibly force him defensive but his wingman will most certainly steam roller you. To get slow 2v2 would hand the opposition the advantage.

Even in a gaming environment, if the guy you're shooting at knows how to get rid of the missile quickly and keep his speed, that slow flying stint will see you lose 5nm of separation and eating a missile in the face next time you turn around.

I must say,over the years,I've learnt a lot from you guys. I also like your back and forth sparring because,usually a lot gets explained. GGTharos,could you pls give a diagramatical rep of a 'crank'

i'm writing up a more comprehensive reply right now, but it's taking a bit of time, patience please :)

Not right now, but it's really easy to do. Just pull the target to one radar gimbal or other other (ie. just barely inside the radar antenna's ability to swivel left/right).

 

I must say,over the years,I've learnt a lot from you guys. I also like your back and forth sparring because,usually a lot gets explained. GGTharos,could you pls give a diagramatical rep of a 'crank'

Even in a gaming environment, if the guy you're shooting at knows how to get rid of the missile quickly and keep his speed, that slow flying stint will see you lose 5nm of separation and eating a missile in the face next time you turn around.

 

I was trying to be nice and give the guy some credit for trying to help out. His tactics may not be bullet proof but his self taught ideas and willingness to help should be applauded.

...GGTharos,could you pls give a diagramatical rep of a 'crank'

 

It's actually quite simple, the name makes it sound complex. Go back and read the post response from @EtherealN which I posted in the opening post of this thread. He explains it. Also, here's a link to terminology (search for "crank").

 

As @GGTharos says:

... Just pull the target to one radar gimbal or other other (ie. just barely inside the radar antenna's ability to swivel left/right).

 

Just turn (max G while preserving combat speed ~425 KIAS for F-15C) until the target (radar contact) is all the way to one side of your radar display (approximately - just shy of - 60 degrees). That's a "crank" as I understand it. Go another 30 degrees (total of 90 degrees - perpendicular - to radar) and now you are on the "beam".

 

Re-reading @EtherealN's post in the opening of this thread, you will see that if you have gone to the gimbal limit (~60 degrees) and are still in trouble and need to defeat a missile radar or enemy aircraft's radar by a.) beaming, or b.) notching (which is beaming with the addition of - usually - descending BELOW the offending radar you are attempting to defeat... using ground clutter to your advantage).

 

A drawing will be useful to be sure... I don't have the means right now either.

 

"Snipe"

Edited January 14, 2013 by arteedecco

Let's tone down the aggression a bit, that's good behind the stick, not on the forum. I'm trying to be constructive here.

 

You thus confuse yourself and anyone reading your advice. The term for what you're doing is 'crank'.

Putting aside the offensive manner in which you are saying this, Thank you for the information. Please try to get passed my inexperience with proper terminology and look at what i'm actually trying to say. With your permission i'd like to edit my original reply to replace "notch" with "crank". The reason i'm asking for permission is that such an edit would significantly alter the flow of the topic. (We wouldn't have had the same conversation).

 

That missile is constantly turning in order to achieve a collision course while you're flying in the crank. Flying faster = more turning = more energy loss for the missile = more distance to fly as well.

Theoreticaly yes. Theoreticaly, also my aproach works. What matters is which is more effective.

You're effectively accusing me of what you're doing now: One-dimensional thinking.

 

First of all, the word "accuse" i believe is too strong.

By your previous replies, you did not seem to understand my tactic. I believe i understand what you are saying, and that you are wrong, and you believe you understand what i em saying and that i em wrong. I'm not opaque to reason, if your arguments are convincing, i will change my style. But i never do something without understanding EXACTLY why, and how it works.

 

 

You like to gain speed up to that combat speed in a split-S after giving up your combat speed.

It's a trade off. I sacrifice speed at first, and gain distance from target. Then i sacrifice altitude and gain speed. Then i sacrifice speed and gain altitude.

 

 

It's a poor way of doing things that happens to work on virtual pilots who don't know better.

I tried different approaches, this seems to have the highest success ratio. Please show me a better one that works, and i'll use it too.

 

Not something that people should be learning.

That should be up the each individual person. I haven't seen any tactics anywhere, best i found was a picture and description of each "maneuver" with generic ideas of when they can be used. I had to develop this tactic in a slow process over time, and it works. I would have been glad to see ANY tactic when i first start flying.

 

And sorry but i'm still not convinced you truly understand, it feels like you just see "low speed" and automatically discard it from viable tactics, instead of actually thinking it, perhaps trying it, and seeing how it affects your encounters.

 

 

 

 

Green is you.

Red: enemy missile when you are slow.

Blue: enemy missile when you are fast.

 

Note how the enemy missile travels BOTH a longer distance, AND has to turn harder (remember: after just a few seconds, that thing is a glider - any time it turns, it slows down and becomes easier to defeat).

 

How about this ?

Green is you.

Red: enemy missile when you are slow.

Blue: enemy missile when you are fast.

 

This is what i was trying to say in the quote below:

Not really. It's all about angles.

 

In a true notch, you are correct.

But if you keep a target lock, then you are actually still closing in with your own energy. You just translate some of the forward movement to side movement.

 

The most helpful thing would be if someone with a math background could actually calculate what is the angle at which one or the other becomes more effective.

 

I think the tactic by Siskin may work to a degree in a gaming environment, but faced with a realistic foe then you may be able to come out alive against one bandit and possibly force him defensive but his wingman will most certainly steam roller you. To get slow 2v2 would hand the opposition the advantage.

 

This is designed strictly as a 1 vs 1 tactic, no wingmen here. In that case, the situation changes radically.

Generally if i come across more than 1 bandits, after the first split-S i keep going till they disengage. Hopefully getting some kills in the process. 1 vs 2 or more is not great odds.

 

 

Even in a gaming environment, if the guy you're shooting at knows how to get rid of the missile quickly and keep his speed

 

The internet is full of similar statements, but nothing concrete on HOW to do that. Please elaborate.

 

I was trying to be nice and give the guy some credit for trying to help out. His tactics may not be bullet proof but his self taught ideas and willingness to help should be applauded.

 

Thank you. No tactics are bullet proof, but this works best of what i found so far.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Siskin

See video in my signature below - it will help you visualize

 

<< +1 @dooom :thumbup:

 

Most helpful.

 

@GGTharos / @EtherealN, what's your take on that vid? Any recommendations, corrections, ways to improve?

This is one of the most helpful threads for understanding actual tactics.

 

Thanks you very much

 

Leon

Let's tone down the aggression a bit, that's good

 

 

How about this ?

Green is you.

Red: enemy missile when you are slow.

Blue: enemy missile when you are fast.

 

.

 

 

One thing. This works at long range, but at medium to short range, if you go slow you are helping the missile to do his job.

 

 

 

For a drawn example, see below:

 

 

Green is you.

Red: enemy missile when you are slow.

Blue: enemy missile when you are fast.

 

Slowing down = suicide. ;)

 

In my point of view, this other aspect works better in diferents distances, also you are in better position to notch the missile or enemy plane, with less angle it will be more difficult.

 

regards.