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that speed is attainable depending on launcher plane speed. Also: Missiles are WIP

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that speed is attainable depending on launcher plane speed. Also: Missiles are WIP

 

Not only speed but also altitude ASL of the launching platform.

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which reminds me that most people fly low and wonder why missiles are so short ranged.

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Right now the R-27 is in probably the 3rd month of research in terms of flight model.

 

Once everything that can be learned has been, and the R-27 is tuned as well as can be, it will be time to tune other missiles :)

Also please keep in mind that at low altitude missiles lose speed very quickly after the rocket motor burns out.

 

ED testers, could you check please the R-77 flight?, it's reducing the speed seconds after launch to 450 and 560 knots TAS, it's a realistic? any site I read about the R-77, says he fly about 4.5 mach max

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77 not the 27

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Right now the R-27 is in probably the 3rd month of research in terms of flight model.

 

Once everything that can be learned has been, and the R-27 is tuned as well as can be, it will be time to tune other missiles :)

Also please keep in mind that at low altitude missiles lose speed very quickly after the rocket motor burns out.

 

Thanks!

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Right now the R-27 is in probably the 3rd month of research in terms of flight model.

 

Once everything that can be learned has been, and the R-27 is tuned as well as can be, it will be time to tune other missiles :)

Also please keep in mind that at low altitude missiles lose speed very quickly after the rocket motor burns out.

 

I'm glad you admit that rockets are not set well.So,I was right when I claimed thay are not.Now,we ALL admit that we have a problem, I hope it will soon be resolved.

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Nobody hidden the fact missiles needed work. Whats the surprise here?

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Here is a translation of how the R-27 works:

"The missile is guided to the target by a combination of proportional navigation method: radio controlled inertially guided during the first phase of their trajectory (70% thereof), and at the end the homing head is activated (by semi-active radar or infrared pulse doppler depending on version)

 

In this case the american RWR has to know all the radio frequencies used by the inertial flight of the R-27, which I can tell you is variable, and can be adjusted by the pilot prior or during the flight.

 

Infrared pulse-doppler? Does that refer to the IR-guided variants? If so, something is wrong here as they don't get mid-course updates; they are locked on before launch.

 

Regarding the frequencies, they would have to know the frequency range used by these transmissions and configure the equipment to cover that range as well. If they actually needed to use a method in those lines to distinguish a missile lock, I don't think that getting such information would be very far fetched for them given the examples such as the Combat Tree system.

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probably not improved yet. happened to me a couple of times after the other guy slalomed through all my slammers. They were all guiding but couldn't turn.

 

There is a second lesson to be learned here: not only missiles suck but also you can be overconfident thinking you can get away the same way as your opponents.

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I think the 27s got buffed in speed and the 120Cs seem to eat chaff since the newest patch. Maybe it's just me since I don't play FC3 much anymore, but when I tried with this patch I couldn't hit a Su-27 from 15nm with a 120c at 25,000 ft.

 

Oh and it seems like radar gimbals from the Su-27 is too high. The missile was still guiding onto me even when the Su-27 was nearly at a 90 degree angle. The white puff is me less than a second from impact. I watched the track several times to make sure I didn't do anything dumb like leave my jammer on.

 

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Edited by kk0425
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Havent tried the latest patch but that doesn't surprise me. The AMRAAM was barely tolerable as it was, but what stood out, was not how much better it was over the R-27, but rather how much the later sucked so much. The slammer should have been left alone for now to fix 1 variable: the R-27. Makes it easy when you have many variables. Trying to fix them all 1 one step gets woefully complicated.


Edited by Pilotasso

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I think the 27s got buffed in speed and the 120Cs seem to eat chaff since the newest patch. Maybe it's just me since I don't play FC3 much anymore, but when I tried with this patch I couldn't hit a Su-27 from 15nm with a 120c at 25,000 ft.

 

The 120's are certainly under-modeled, but proving that is not easy. Most people don't realize how badly under-modeled they are in range. That said, missiles are still WIP.

 

Oh and it seems like radar gimbals from the Su-27 is too high. The missile was still guiding onto me even when the Su-27 was nearly at a 90 degree angle. The white puff is me less than a second from impact. I watched the track several times to make sure I didn't do anything dumb like leave my jammer on.

 

It's probably not the gimbals, but the manner in which radar memory mode is implemented.

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Understood that missiles are still WIP. But performance is certainly worse than before patch 3.

 

As far is gimbals go, that makes sense, but it still stands to reason that the missile should not be tracking at that much of an extreme angle since there should be no radar beam for it to guide on anymore. I knew it couldn't track at that much of an offset before this patch.

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A couple of questions technical observations ...

 

I was under the impression that R-27R is guided all the way, but R-27ER needs the data-link (What you call radio-controlled ... same thing). Are you talking about R-27ER?

 

What is 'IR pulse-doppler'? Generally speaking laser systems don't do pulse-doppler, neither do missiles. There may be an IR pulse code involved, which could be transferred with the laser, but that would imply tracking the missile, which I doubt it what's happening. Maybe you meant RF PD? Or did you just mean the type of seeker, so it's just not a good translation?

 

Here is a translation of how the R-27 works:

"The missile is guided to the target by a combination of proportional navigation method: radio controlled inertially guided during the first phase of their trajectory (70% thereof), and at the end the homing head is activated (by semi-active radar or infrared pulse doppler depending on version) and it will continue to guide the missile to its target. Once the missile is at the optimal distance from the enemy aircraft (10 to 15 meters), the active radar fuze detonates the warhead of the missile, consisting expansively explosive shrapnel.

 

This doesn't mean anything. The more modern the missile gets, the more complex paths it flies. 'Special angles' for low flying objects are simple enough and known since 1950's when the USN implemented them to help destroy low-flying objects: Don't dive the missile until you have to :)

 

This combined approach enables reliable tracking of the target at long distances. The missile can be guided along paths that allow precomputed special conditions for the operation of the seeker head and the proximity fuse. It is able to avoid enemy radar estimated lobe and approach a low-flying object from a certain angle."
The RWR (american or whomever's) already intercepts all frequencies - it then sorts them all, decides which signals are what, etc. It doesn't need to necessarily care about what frequency it is looking at to classify a signal. You can classify a signal as that of a certain type without knowing the actual source: X-band (fighter radars usually) will be in the X-band, and operate at certain PRFs. STT is simple enough to detect. M-Links probably happen in the X-band as well, but the signal looks different.

Is the STT + M-Link correlated in space and time? Sound the alarm!

 

Want to classify the signal as a MiG-29 or Su-27 or whatever? (Incidentally, I don't think the representation of MiG-29 and Su-27 as the same radar on RWR is correct, but not a big deal) ... then you need to know what each radar 'sounds' like. But only for that. :)

 

Incidentally, western (And I'm sure more modern eastern RWRs, but I don't know as much about those) will classify target based on emissions characteristics of their radars, but also their jammers. TEWS (specific to the F-15) implements whatever it is that they used to replace Combat Tree with as well, and is also tied to the radar to help it conduct analysis of targets. The F-15 radar can be put into 'SNIFF' mode, allowing it to simply receive other radar emissions without radiating. It can also use NCTR to identify a target that is part of its NCTR library, which may be the actual part that analyzes a jamming signal.

 

TEWS has now been replaced with something even better.

 

As for pilot adjusting frequencies during flight, where are the controls for that? They aren't in the Su-27 or MiG-29 cockpit that I can see, but perhaps I missed them.

 

Certainly you can't have everyone on the same frequency, it's not a good thing since they'll mix their missiles up.

 

In this case the american RWR has to know all the radio frequencies used by the inertial flight of the R-27, which I can tell you is variable, and can be adjusted by the pilot prior or during the flight.

Edited by GGTharos

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The guidance may be the same, but the ranges at which the R-27R is employed may not require the data link :)

 

The AIM-7 operated without datalink at 22nm against small targets and 30nm against typical fighter-sized targets.

 

Even the lesser of these ranges is longer than the typical R-27R usage scenario.

 

I'm not talking about in-game missiles BTW :P

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The AIM-7F is a very old missile, older than the R-27 and probably inferior in many ways.

 

However, it has a similar size seeker that had a SARH range of 22nm against a 2sqm target (it actually had no datalink to speak of ).

 

It probably isn't unfair to assume that the R-27R's seeker can do about as well, given that it would probably have a better SNR than AIM-7F - in any case, the point being that we don't have a lot of points for comparison, this is one of them. Whether it works the same way or not, it's still a benchmark of some sort for the RF physics of those systems :)

 

This knowledge can then drive more interesting questions - well, IMHO.

 

don't just asume :) If AIM-7 worked in certain way it doesn't mean R-27R has to work the same. Not that I know but just saying... don't just asume :)

Edited by GGTharos

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It follows a great loft trajectory and comes down on top with lots of speed remaining.

 

I disagree that the AMRAAM is under-modeled in range at all.

It's only been improved in range and speed, since LOMAC, then FC1 and FC2 and now in DCS it's the longest range ever and virtually immune to chaff..

 

Longest range ever? The F-15C fanboys will have you now. :P I'll start the countdown. :)

 

But on a more relevant point: the "problem" is that the Aim-120 doesn't just "loft". They do all sorts of funky optimization stuff with waypointing, MCCs etcetera. But obviously, the big problem lies right there: we know it "does stuff". But as for what stuff exactly? Yeah... Anyone in the know that told ED would probably find themselves answering to espionage or treason charges. :P

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Most if not all Sparrow kills were within 15nm in the Desert Storm 1991.

 

 

you have a difficulty discerning the difference between effective range and maximum range.

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I still have LOMAC, FC1 and FC2 installed.

And I fly FC2 often when nobody is on DCS.

And I'm telling you, fanboys or not, the fact is that all the missiles' kinetic performance has been drastically improved since those simulators.

In FC1 you could make multiple AIM-120 kills launching at 50nm with TWS as long as you were angels moon, I can't see that happening now. The drag on the missiles seems more effective in FC3.

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In FC1 you could make multiple AIM-120 kills launching at 50nm with TWS as long as you were angels moon, I can't see that happening now. The drag on the missiles seems more effective in FC3.

 

same as others, why 120 so special?

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My PC specs below:

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RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

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