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Air-to-Air Missile Discussion


Shein

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Hi guys, good discussion, I have a beautiful tacview track here (and the original DCS track too), if you want to check the really BAD perfomance of the russian missiles, you will see how a F-15C only moving the plane head up and down, and releasing chaff evade 4 R-27ER, distance to the enemy ? less than 20 kms!, in the second round you will see how I shoot two ET below Rtr to a frontal F-15 with only EOS and the guy with flares evade both less than 12 kms! in the other side they only shoot an 120C and killed me with only one missile each time, it's ok than 120C is the best missile of the world but I don't beleive that russian missiles are SOOOOOO bad. That's my opinion.

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That's fine. Heat seekers are like that.

 

in the second round you will see how I shoot two ET below Rtr to a frontal F-15 with only EOS and the guy with flares evade both less than 12 kms!

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In fact they're not sensitive enough to flare head-on. :)

So, working as intended, and 'improvement' would be in the opposite direction of the complaint :) Head-on shots are against the coolest possible aspect.

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In fact they're not sensitive enough to flare head-on. :)

So, working as intended, and 'improvement' would be in the opposite direction of the complaint :) Head-on shots are against the coolest possible aspect.

 

so spamming flares while barre rolling is an actual realisticish thing to do?

 

just asking here

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@karambiatos

 

Maybe, but I don't think it's real maneuvering - a pilot wants to maneuver as little as possible. The more you maneuver, the more SA you lose that you then have to re-gain. Barrel rolling is also simply not necessary. Think of a C-130 spamming flares. If your heater isn't using an FPA seeker, it's going to be as blind as the pilot who launched it... :D

 

@Darkwolf: Sure it will see it, but it's looking at the coolest possible profile of the aircraft, which means signal-to-noise ratio is reduced, thus detection/lock range head-on is reduced, and sensitivity to counter-measures is increased.

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I will post you how I launched ET from rear aspect at less than 10 km to see what you will answer then. And what about the ER? they need rear aspect too? what about the 4 I shoot at less than 12 km and a couple of chaff sent them to the space?.


Edited by JunMcKill
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I will post you how I launched ET from rear aspect at less than 10 km to see what you will answer then.

 

What's the problem?

 

And what about the ER? they need rear aspect too? what about the 4 I shoot at less than 12 km and a couple of chaff sent them to the space?.
What about the ER? What about the AIM-7? What about AIM-120s? All radar missiles (and heaters to some extent) share the same problem of having fairly old and not very flexible CM rejection code. It's going to stay this way until it is replaced some time in the future.

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Yeah... ERs suck....

I dont even bother.. i fly the 29C... the R77 suck just a bit less...

 

120c.... hate them... bias very bias...

 

But every one knows that... and the moderators know it too.. but this is what we have... alternative? None....

Ohh... no... no alternative.

 

Im sure down the line we will have a develoler remarking that they screwed up somewhere with the code and its fine now.... and then the russian radar missiles will be uber effective... :)

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"whatever-the-other-guys-have-is-always-better-than-mine". I assure you it is not the case. All missiles suck right now. Its difficult for the other guys as well. If they still manage to kill you then its you who suck even more. Sorry to be this blunt but its not ED bias against you :)

 

Time to clear that rain cloud hovering your head.

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ED isnt biased towards me...im no egomaniac...

But i ran my circuts before on this theread... none will come out on top untill some lays down the hard data on all systems.... but then we would bitch about that.

 

Just the nature of the beast.

 

ED has a monopol position on this really and with great pwore comes great... bug fixing

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What's the problem?

 

What about the ER? What about the AIM-7? What about AIM-120s? All radar missiles (and heaters to some extent) share the same problem of having fairly old and not very flexible CM rejection code. It's going to stay this way until it is replaced some time in the future.

 

Oh please. You know the ERs problem is much worse than the 120c. Evading 4 missiles head on with chaff (reproducible) is a joke. Im still waiting on chizh to see if he can make a temporary workaround. For flanker pilots there is no alternative to a useless R/ER.

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You have no documentation to put up on the table, so claiming that it is better against chaff and maneuvering targets is something you and I can guise. The platform that use Aim-120 against ER-27 get already the edge since AIM-120 is active.

 

Putting in our own bias speculations by how much etch missile should track better compared to another is pointless. Therefore I believe the best approach is to make the chaff/flare resistance to minimum differences. There are other parameters that makes the missiles behave different compared to each other, it doesn't have to be in tracking.

 

Its like us starting to argue witch seeker is more sensitive to flares, AIM-9 or R-73. Until we can see documents or videos as prove, I will have my bias approach and you yours. Therefore it is better to model as little difference in how missiles react to chaff or flares. Because the only thing we can say is that it is a newer missile, which doesn't prove anything. You can still believe that only Aim-120 had software upgrades not ER-27 along all this years, especially when ER-27 has been transferred to newer generation of fighters.

 

Russians are still learning how to advertise their products, they are by far not as efficient as US companies.


Edited by Teknetinium

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It's reversed. The final Semi-Active stage of ER is vulnerable to chaff, and 120C Active stage is least vulnerable.

The initial stages of SARH launch, Inertial with Mid-course Updates are controlled by the host aircraft and chaff is less useful, but ECM can be used.

Once the ER is on its final stage, it's solely relying on physics of reflection of radar waves off the target and that's very fragile stuff that can change in a moment with CM and maneuvers/angles.

 

The question is by how much Aim-120C is more resistant to chaff compared to ER-27? Since that is not known it would be reasonable to make minimum differences in that part of the simulator. As you are saying there is plenty of other systems that could make the difference.

 

Meanwhile we are waiting for DCS F-18 and Su-27S, When it concerns tracking ED need to draw average line between this systems we don't have.


Edited by Teknetinium

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It is known that AIM-120C isn't just resistant to chaff, it's pretty much immune.

 

R-27 is old technology and still vulnerable to chaff, but it should only be vulnerable on the beam. That is also known.

 

There are no 'average lines'. That's like saying 'it isn't known how much more vulnerable to chaff R-13 is, so MiG-21 should draw an average line between itself and F-18'.

 

The question is by how much Aim-120C is more resistant to chaff compared to ER-27. Since that is not known it would be reasonable to make minimum differences in that part of the simulator. As you are saying there is plenty other systems that could make the difference.

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R-27 is 20 years older than constantly upgraded AIM-120C. Do you think the difference should be minimal?

 

I'll say it again: AIM-120C is practically immune to chaff. It's not just 'less vulnerable', it just doesn't care about chaff.

 

R-27s are not equivalent SARH models to AIM-120.

 

The best you can do right now with knowledge that is public, is maybe guess that AIM-7P (which is NOT right now part of DCS, but it should be when F-18 comes out, since the P is a USN missile - the USAF never used it, it switched completely to AIM-120 after AIM-7MH) is a SARH equivalent to an AIM-120, but that's because the P version is a fairly recent upgrade including hardware and software components.

 

I've not heard a thing about such radical upgrades to any model R-27 that currently in use.

 

GG, MIG-21 is 40 years older then F-18 not 10, So the difference would not be minimal :)

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R-27 is 20 years older than constantly upgraded AIM-120C. Do you think the difference should be minimal?

 

YES, between AIM-120A/B.

Aim-120C should fight R-77.

Basicly it is not realistic to me because Aim-120C would face updated versions of aircrafts as Su-30 and so on.

 

I know that Russians had only couple of squads of this new modified aircrafts in 1992 but that is what you would get if you fight squad against squad.

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YES, between AIM-120A/B.

 

AIM-120A had its problems, and it was very quickly replaced. Given that it was set to replace AIM-7, which is comparable to R-27, I really doubt R-17 and AIM-120A are anywhere near the same footing.

 

Aim-120C should fight R-77.

 

AIM-120B and R-77 are of comparable technology. AIM-120C is more advanced.

 

Basicly it is not realistic to me because Aim-120C would face updated versions of aircrafts as Su-30 and so on.

 

So far it faced MiG-29As.

 

I know that Russians had only couple of squads of this new modified aircrafts in 1992 but that is what you would get if you fight squad against squad.

 

... So F-15C's should start getting AIM-9X's because you have helmet sight and R-73?

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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@GGTharos and Teknetinium

 

 

Guys this is a Hell of a read, I am a retired Logistic Analyst/PC. Tech. and had little time to study the weapons systems of my Sim. Hobby turned Passion.

 

How did you guys learn so much about the systems like this!!!??? Outstanding!

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R-27 is 20 years older than constantly upgraded AIM-120C. Do you think the difference should be minimal?

 

I'll say it again: AIM-120C is practically immune to chaff. It's not just 'less vulnerable', it just doesn't care about chaff.

 

R-27s are not equivalent SARH models to AIM-120.

 

 

your constant justifications not justify the catastrophic performance of Russian Missiles

 

Here a picture of how R-73 could be better than the R-27R in some cases. 13km launched and the R-73 has impacted me first.

 

13km of launch for the R-27R and does not have enough power to reach the target properly.

 

what is the next step, downgrade the R-73 too?

 

I think is good enough... how Long time we should see this way to respond to everybody. How many People do you like see requesting what should be done??

 

 

R-73better_zpsee5d41b1.jpg

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