Jump to content

DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion


Bluedrake42

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 2.6k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

So does that mean that this "funnel"/snake or whatever it's called was simply too laborious to develope in FSX, but could be included in the DCS version?

 

Yes. Remember that FSX is a General Aviation simulator. All military aircraft in FSX were never intended to be combat capable. So any tool for air combat has to be built from scratch. This is why VRS TacPack is so convenient, since they have already built the tools needed.

 

DCS is a different beast, since from the beginning it was intended to be an air combat simulator then the tools needed are already built. Also, unlike FSX it still has a development team that is improving the simulator and which could create the tools that we need and/or help us create them.

 

The Su-27 (and maybe others aircraft) gun funnel is pretty like that, so i think the "snake" can be implemented in DCS.

 

If the tools exist then yes the "snake" will be implemented. But like many other features, it will be implemented in the later stages after all the basic functionality have been finished and tested.

 

At this stage we are trying to get a fully functional aircraft with working weapons and sensor. Once we achieve that, we will work on the details.


Edited by Zeus67

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

"The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although also available on the F-16 avionics, modeled in Falcon 4 this snake/snap line is not much used. Judging from my experience and watching hundreds of dogfight videos people prefer the funnel mode for aiming.

 

Pretty much... The manual itself (for F4 AF) tells you to use it "only if you have time to lose".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder what is the calculation basis? If it is just the visual representation that is different from a funnel, it shouldn't matter apart from necessary training.

Only if it computes differently, it should have an impact.

 

Symbology is symbology. You "put the thing on the thing " if the one thing is a circle, a box, a cross or a horizontal line..

 

Would like to know what the symbols represent. Seems the large and small crossing lines indicate the salvo spread at a certain distance? Or is it bracketing the bandit based on radar data?

There was a mode in the video, where it changed to a triangle on the bandit and a "circular distance clock" at least it looks like it...

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seem to be a kind of funnel, except instead of target size, this is a matter of target distance. I think the pilot must keep the target between marks (and line) according the target's distance évaluation (by the pilot).

 

If you look the end of the video "Mirage 2000 VS F16: Dogfight", you see that in (what appear to be an) "radar active mode", the traditionnal circle reticle follows the "snake", but more the target is close, more the reticle is near the snake's start point. In fact , maybe this "snake" is computed by all aircraft's avionics (this is a balistic vector extrapolation/history ) but is not displayed. In the Mirage 2000 this is displayed and also used as "funnel-like".


Edited by sedenion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I really don't understand is why the snake ripples.

 

1zpl383.jpg

 

Even Jesus could be in that cockpit and there is still no way the round you're about to fire will travel down that path, so it's definitely not an alternative to the funnel. And the pipper isn't even aligned.

 

Actually, it kinda looks like the LCOS sight in Falcon BMS, except there the funnel ripples too which AFAIK doesn't happen in what hud video I've seen of F16s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It ripples because of the aircraft mouvements. This snake is like an "historic", a "foot print" of where the bullet "goes". if the aircraft had fired continuously, the bullets's position will form what you see as this "snake". The snake is formed according time, and since bullets moves forward: time=distance and distance=time. More you follow the snake from its begining, and more you go to the past and far away from the aircraft. The classical "funnel" use the same data calculation, it juste use them in a different way with setting a target size evaluation to calculate the funnel's width according distance (and time, since time=distance).

 

Why the reticle is not exactly on the "snake" ? Maybe because the snake is juste a "passive" balistic calculation/historic (like the funnel), and the reticle uses others prameters, like targets's vector + distance and calculates a "mixed" evaluation with passive balistic and anticipation according targets's vector + distance.

 

Tomorrow we will see the Theory of relativity, where distance = time but equaly mass and energy... thanks https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f1/26/8f/f1268f7f225765e4d2a87238b02a7fff.jpg


Edited by sedenion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figured the snake ripples because it shows where the rounds you would have fired go. I'm questioning what purpose it serves. I don't think there's any funnel type sight that ripples either as afaik it's calculated based on the g loading and orientation relative to the ground. No reason anyone should chose between the "history sight" that ripples and is of questionable use and a funnel that actually shows where the rounds you are about to fire will actually go.

 

What it looks like in that video is that the pipper itself is calculated properly and the snake is there as a reference for orientation or something.

 

The ripple thing has been bigging me since falcon and I just can't get my head around its purpose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figured the snake ripples because it shows where the rounds you would have fired go. I'm questioning what purpose it serves. I don't think there's any funnel type sight that ripples either as afaik it's calculated based on the g loading and orientation relative to the ground. No reason anyone should chose between the "history sight" that ripples and is of questionable use and a funnel that actually shows where the rounds you are about to fire will actually go.

 

What it looks like in that video is that the pipper itself is calculated properly and the snake is there as a reference for orientation or something.

 

The ripple thing has been bigging me since falcon and I just can't get my head around its purpose.

This is only a guess, but the snake has two horizontal bars and my guess is, that these (or one of them) indicates the distance (radar?) to the target. That would mean, if the target is further out, that indicator would be placed closer to the "tail" of the snake - as that is where rounds land (or would have landed if you had fired earlier).

 

The snake's tail is quite wobbly - due to the maneuvering - so it is probably difficult to hit something with it ... but that's just the way it is, I suppose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did a bit of research and found some on the "snake".

Seems it is in fact a representation of a LCOS or AFAL LCOS calculation.

It shows where bullets would be, when you had fired a bullet flight time (the snake line or hotline) representing the bullets TOF.

I did not find anything about the vertical lines. What I guess, they represent the current distance to the target (fixed distance or radar calculated?) so if you keep the "part of the snake between the crossing lines" over the bandit for at least the bullets TOF you will hit.

The obvious advantage to a funnel seems to be the independence to the angle or position relative to the bandit, making it a good choice for snapshots.

As I understood, it only gets high calculations errors when executing aileron rolls while shooting...

Will be interesting to read the Mirage's manual and figuring it out... :D

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figured the snake ripples because it shows where the rounds you would have fired go. I'm questioning what purpose it serves. I don't think there's any funnel type sight that ripples either as afaik it's calculated based on the g loading and orientation relative to the ground. No reason anyone should chose between the "history sight" that ripples and is of questionable use and a funnel that actually shows where the rounds you are about to fire will actually go.

 

The funnel do nearly the same thing, the difference is that funnel has a shorter historic and display two snakes according expected target's width.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=113937&stc=1&d=1425300635

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=113938&stc=1&d=1425300635

 

The M2000 snake is pretty much a funnel with expected target's size set to 0: you juste have one line. The usage is nearly the same as the funnel, except that here, the target size is not a data, the pilot have to evaluate the target's distance and use the "snake" to anticipate the impact point according the estimated target distance by its visual. I think the "horizotal" markers and "dashed" line are distance symbology, for example, de dashed line is from 0 to 100meter, between first and second marker, is from 100 to 500 meter, etc... The problème is, for both funnel and "snake", while the distance is increasing, you loose in precision and the anticipation is hard to evaluate. The historical length is usefull only if you and your target have a very stable vector.

 

However, this is my deduction, i don't know the M2k avionics, but, i think it's what i say.

funnel-twist1.jpg.eb4d154c88a11966e61ef7f126905e67.jpg

funnel-twist2.jpg.6f8c63b975b53c2e33a3ae1f62324c4a.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not too sure about that deduction.

 

I recall from BMS that in F-16 there are about 4 types of air to air gunsights, there was one pretty much the same as the snake but I don't recall what it was called. There is also the distinct funnel like EEGS, though it was more than just a funnel since it had additional symbology on it. If I recall right there was also LCOS which is roughly similar to what we have in FC3 F-15C in radar locked guns mode. Snake really shows a predicted path of bullets according to maneuvres, while funnel is a more range / wingspan bound sight.

 

I'm fairly sure Mirage also would have multiple such options, but a funnel may or may not be among them.

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

DCS-Dismounts Script

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Snake really shows a predicted path of bullets according to maneuvres, while funnel is a more range / wingspan bound sight.

 

I'm pretty sure it's the same data calculation, except that the funnel adds a visual target's size expectation according the distance, which draws a "funnel", where the M2k snake show a "distance scale". It's always ballistic "predictions" according to maneuvers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The mirage snake is a bullet path prediction. The two horizontal lines in the snake represent both target's distance and width. If the target is between those two lines when you press the trigger a hit is assured.

 

At least that is what a former mirage pilot told us.

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

"The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The mirage snake is a bullet path prediction. The two horizontal lines in the snake represent both target's distance and width. If the target is between those two lines when you press the trigger a hit is assured.

 

At least that is what a former mirage pilot told us.

So these horizontal lines appear further down the snake, towards it's tail, if the distance is greater, correct?

 

And ... where does that range information come from? Radar?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The mirage snake is a bullet path prediction. The two horizontal lines in the snake represent both target's distance and width. If the target is between those two lines when you press the trigger a hit is assured.

 

So, here is our "funnel":

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=113952&stc=1&d=1425315454

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=113953&stc=1&d=1425315454

snake-funnel1.png.88c040c1da470b85cd3dece05538865b.png

snake-funnel2.png.1759e60eff43164d68c146eb399b8fb7.png

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...