Jump to content

Air-to-Air Missile Discussion


Shein

Recommended Posts

;1913338']Great, the guys with the TV screens that show them were the enemy are without turning their radar on are complaining about fairness!

 

Funny how you never see F-15 drivers on here crying to get EOS installed... but the place is rammed full of Russian drivers who want American performance from their missiles!

 

Fairness! Fairness???

 

 

Please..... your in the wrong game!

 

this arrogance shows the reality of our game. And take a look who is him??

 

the russian Missile have not the real range, The EOS does not work like in the real life, the R-77 travel to the moon even when this Missile have a active seeker, the R-27ET can be moked doing a simple idle throttle ( the F-15 have Aircondition inside the engines, right? ) and become stealth for IR seeker ( is magic ). The R-27R look like a short range Missile.

 

What else? Have you tested all that? Are you happy? what was your veredict, " all right go ahead "?

enjoy and deceive yourself

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

;1913338']Great, the guys with the TV screens that show them were the enemy are without turning their radar on are complaining about fairness!

 

Funny how you never see F-15 drivers on here crying to get EOS installed... but the place is rammed full of Russian drivers who want American performance from their missiles!

 

Fairness! Fairness???

 

 

Please..... your in the wrong game!

 

Why would F-15 drivers be asking for EOS? I don't think he's asking for Russian missiles to perform like AMRAAM, he's asking to have Russian STT lock and SARH launch have no separate warning triggers on RWR (I now believe this is the case in real life). The R-27ER is really short range also, at very high altitude and both targets head on you're lucky to get R-Max at little over 60Km... also EOS is completely useless... and been broken for a very long time. R-73 should get LA at 60° of bore... in game it's 30° (you can launch-overide though and it'll track as it has TV)... so just few points that this "cry" is not unjustified.

 

PS: Its also likely that range for ER is many times said to be much greater, I do accept possibility that this range is given for ballistic range (till missile hits dirt) and not actual useful able-to-hit target range.


Edited by Kuky

No longer active in DCS...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bla bla ;)

 

EOS is useless? I really dont think so mate... you get to kill people with it, I'd say that is pretty useful!

 

I see lots of people getting kills with it in the 51st server so that one doesnt really fly mate.

 

Regardless of your ghost contacts or not, you still have a system that shows you visually you where the enemy are when your nose cold... the F-15 does not.

 

My point is I'm sick of people moaning about fairness when they have EOS....

 

I didn't read the whole thread so I can't comment on what he wants performance wise, tbh I have no interest in arguing about what's what, I just like to jump in threads like this every now and then and stir the fire so don't try and pull me in... I'm not interested ;)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;1913338']Great, the guys with the TV screens that show them were the enemy are without turning their radar on are complaining about fairness!

 

Funny how you never see F-15 drivers on here crying to get EOS installed... but the place is rammed full of Russian drivers who want American performance from their missiles!

 

Fairness! Fairness???

 

 

Please..... your in the wrong game!

 

well you could complain, if russian planes were able to share data between them, but they cant you need an awacs or EWR so it and only it can share data with the rest of you, now lets start with the fact that datalinks dont disappear after radar looses contact with them, sometimes they stay thee FOREVER, then the russian TWS is completely useless it locks up everything automatically, and last the R-60 has the same flare rejection with the r-73 and ET, though im not being fair the aim-9m flare rejection is horrible as well.

 

;1913374']Bla bla wink.gif

 

EOS is useless? I really dont think so mate... you get to kill people with it, I'd say that is pretty useful!

 

I see lots of people getting kills with it in the 51st server so that one doesnt really fly mate.

is that so?

people would be getting a lot of kills if you gave them a shovel and a bunch of rocks, that argument doesnt defeat the point that it doesnt do something that is known it can do.

 

finally i dont think this version of the f-15c shouldnt have datalink if it has it in real life.


Edited by karambiatos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did your reliable source tell you what RWRs do to warn you?

Did your reliable source tell you what an F-15 radar does when trying to launch an AIM-7 and why (hint: it might not change waveform either depending on circumstances, but it has reason to try in other cases!)?

Did they explain to you that a radar that doesn't change waveform = say hello to lost missiles unless fairly close in a bunch of circumstances?

Did they tell you that the time-to-die meter belongs in western RWRs, not in the Russian one you have in the game?

Did they tell you how much is missing from the western RWR?

Did they tell you the russian RWR shouldn't be issuing a missile launch warning either under the same circumstances?

Did they tell you the russian RWR might not be able to warn you about an AIM-120 going active?

 

I see a lot of whining about trying to make Russian things 'equal' or 'better', when they're just about as good as they could be compared to what it is they're competing with :)

You have RWRs on both sides that warn you when missiles are launched. You really have nothing to complain about.

 

To add what JunMcKill said about Russian missile STT lock/missile launch, I've come to same info that when you are locked by Russian radar there is no difference when he fires the missile... the moment you are locked you have to consider that you are being fired on. Now knowing this (coming from 2 different, and I'd call fairly safe/reliable source) I'd believe this to be true... and having this in sim would change quite a lot how you react when being locked by MiG or Flanker.

Edited by GGTharos
  • Like 1

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see a lot of whining about trying to make Russian things 'equal' or 'better', when they're just about as good as they could be compared to what it is they're competing with :)

You have RWRs on both sides that warn you when missiles are launched. You really have nothing to complain about.

 

  • Serbians Migs? A lot of avionics failures and just a bunch of them against the wide NATO.

  • Iraqi Migs? total useless against a big force with allied and precisions weapons. Also Iraq was under regimen and part of the people under military dictatorship , so the USAF and their F-15 Play with all that.

Now tell me. This two victories against the Mig-29A (Export Version and ask to the iraqi pilots about their payload) give you reasons to make a constant Propaganda against the russians versions Mig-29S and The Su-27K with R-27ER, R-27ET and R-77, dataling, powerfull Radar, ECM (strongers than the F-15s one and no simulated, why??).

 

We have the Mig-29S and the Su-27K versions, and we want the right performance of these birds, moving away all the US fantasy propaganda.


Edited by pepin1234

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know what the 'right' performance of these birds is? LOL :)

 

It's really amusing how one guy is implying F-15's were running scared from the all-powerful MiG while the other one calls the same MiGs export POS and the pilots flying them incompetent.

 

Let's make this simple: RWRs and missile launch warnings aren't going to change in the forseeable future. When you can bring documentation as to how they operate (rather than some guy telling you one little piece of information without wider context) then the devs will change things. Good luck with finding that information.

 

By the way, it'd be interesting to know how you came up with the idea that one specific jammer is more powerful than another specific jammer ... know something others don't?

 

I'll give you a hint to get you started: The Su-27's jammer is a poorly integrated, but powerful emitter. The F-15's TEWS is a highly integrated, powerful emitter. Which one's more powerful?


Edited by GGTharos

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know what the 'right' performance of these birds is? LOL

 

No I dont. But you.

 

for example, just some seconds before:

 

I'll give you a hint to get you started: The Su-27's jammer is a poorly integrated, but powerful emitter. The F-15's TEWS is a highly integrated, powerful emitter. Which one's more powerful?

 

But you only give us confuse and non clear info. plagued of your negative personal info about our russians birds.

 

 

 

Let's make this simple: RWRs and missile launch warnings aren't going to change in the forseeable future. When you can bring documentation as to how they operate (rather than some guy telling you one little piece of information without wider context) then the devs will change things. Good luck with finding that information.?

 

This strategy is become old, mate!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No I dont. But you.

 

for example, just some seconds before:

 

 

 

But you only give us confuse and non clear info. plagued of your negative personal info about our russians birds.

 

 

 

 

 

This strategy is become old, mate!

 

I only see this "strategy" as doing the best they have with the info they have. Especially when you consider the addage about opinions and a certain body part, ED requires something beyond a word-of-mouth observation in order to change the model.

 

And in response to the jammer, if you have two jammers of the same power, but one is integrated with the RWR system, then the integrated jammer knows the frequency band and bearing of the primary threat and can direct its energy as opposed to barrage jamming. That is a huge deal (and not to mention less workload on the pilot).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But you only give us confuse and non clear info. plagued of your negative personal info about our russians birds.

 

Read the Su-27 manual. That's the clearest info you will get, you don't need me for that.

 

This strategy is become old, mate!

 

What strategy? Find real documentation and the devs will use it. It's been done with a lot of things so far.

 

It's your strategy that is old and tired: You are no different that every enthusiast of a particular brand of aircraft that comes across the game and comes to this forum promoting their own thing without actually know what they are talking about. I know, I was there :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only see this "strategy" as doing the best they have with the info they have. Especially when you consider the addage about opinions and a certain body part, ED requires something beyond a word-of-mouth observation in order to change the model.

 

No. Is not like that, believe me...

 

And in response to the jammer, if you have two jammers of the same power, but one is integrated with the RWR system, then the integrated jammer knows the frequency band and bearing of the primary threat and can direct its energy as opposed to barrage jamming. That is a huge deal (and not to mention less workload on the pilot).

 

80s jammers? not sure. But These two jammers could not work like you say before...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only see this "strategy" as doing the best they have with the info they have. Especially when you consider the addage about opinions and a certain body part, ED requires something beyond a word-of-mouth observation in order to change the model.

 

Pretty much. We can have statements from people about certain things, and even if the devs trust them, they won't always implement just based on what is said.

 

USAF pilots have been screaming 'AMRAAM is a virtual death ray inside 8nm' since 1998 as far as flight sims go, no one listens - just one example :)

 

And in response to the jammer, if you have two jammers of the same power, but one is integrated with the RWR system, then the integrated jammer knows the frequency band and bearing of the primary threat and can direct its energy as opposed to barrage jamming. That is a huge deal (and not to mention less workload on the pilot).
Yep, and that's exactly it - not only is the interface important (Su-27 has an additional panel with some switches that the pilot must operate, but according to the pilots it's usually left on auto - F-15 jammer is pretty much full auto as well, but!) but also the feedback: The TEWS will show you who its jamming, and it will take input from the RWR, radar, and possibly other sources to do so.

 

In addition, at least IIRC, Sorbitsias were issued as one set per flight of four and the pilot need some sort of training to operate the pods. Every F-15 has a TEWS and every pilot is trained to use it.

 

I know Sorbitsya does some things that TEWS probably does not - but then again, those things might not be a big deal to an AMRAAM.

 

We know that TEWS can jam something around 2 targets per quadrant, while the Sorbitsia will handle 6 per hemisphere. We don't know if this means the maximum is 2 and 6, or 8 and 12.

 

Without going too deep into what is known and what is known, there's simply no information that would allow you to decide which jammer is more powerful, or better.

 

You could make some assumptions about the US electronics industry producing better parts, but that still doesn't tell you anything about the individual fight - it may end up being a maintenance or availability issue that we know nothing about.

 

Furthermore, actual ECM efficiency in reality depends on ... spying. Yep. Spying. What do we know about how much one side known about the other's radars? Nothing.


Edited by GGTharos

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. Is not like that, believe me...

 

Why believe you? What do you actually know?

 

80s jammers? not sure. But These two jammers could not work like you say before...

 

Why couldn't they?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tracks, people, provide tracks or screenshots or links to backup your statements!

 

I strongly believe that the R-27ER missiles have been nothing but improved since LOMAC.

 

Even the R-27EA ARH never reached over 3000km/hr terminal V in ver 1.01

120C never went over 2800km/hr back in LOMAC.

Now, the missiles are reaching over 5000km/hr at medium altitudes, that's Mach 4!

 

Wikipedia states roughly Mach 4.5 max for ER and Mach 4 for 120.

 

So, the simulation is correct on missiles' speeds.

 

You should be able to do an F-Pole with SARH ER against an ARH 120 theoretically, if you wait for him to launch then launch and deviate from course while keeping the lock.

However, an Element of Surprise technological advantage of TWS is undeniable.

It's difficult to judge when you're launched upon if you can't sense it.

 

But these are all theories, in real life any SARH missile is extremely susceptible to CMs, both Electronic and Chaff dispensers.

 

Old SARH missiles like R/ER rely solely on the radar reflection off the target.

This can drastically change with the targets attitude/aspect and the use of CMs.

And a SARH missile will not correct itself like an ARH.

 

This is a simple concept, people, just get it already, ED got it, modeled it realistically as close as to how it is in real life.

 

Again, we need the supporting systems for these older missiles that increase their Kill Probability. Such systems as GCI and Datalink between the fighters and allowing for supporting each others missiles. A GCI launched ER at a bandit, will not warn him until it's Semi-Active stage, it will fly to it initially with the data provided by GCI without Zhuk illuminating.

 

It's a simple Soviet Technology, and can be done in DCS and then the desired multi-player balance will be achieved.

 

:pilotfly:

 

P.S.: Also an EOS/IRST elevation fix is overdue, but I feel it's very very close. :)

EOS has also greatly been improved since LOMAC, as you can get a lock on an after-burning but not receding target at over 100km easily in Multi-player!

 

Tracks? Did you review the tracks in the link I gave you before? Why are you still talking about R27EA? No one is interested in it. I can dodge 4 ERs fired sequentially directly head on from 20-25 clicks simply by chaffing and maintaining heading. Do you believe that is correct modelling?


Edited by ///Rage

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron

Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron

TS: 195.201.110.22

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;1913338']Great, the guys with the TV screens that show them were the enemy are without turning their radar on are complaining about fairness!

 

Funny how you never see F-15 drivers on here crying to get EOS installed... but the place is rammed full of Russian drivers who want American performance from their missiles!

 

Fairness! Fairness???

 

 

Please..... your in the wrong game!

 

See above. Hardly American modelling we are asking for. I just want EOS/TWS to function correctly. And I want missiles to track correctly when not in the notch. What about that do you find so unreasonable?


Edited by ///Rage

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron

Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron

TS: 195.201.110.22

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^^

 

Yep, there are 'worked before' things that need to be fixed now.

 

I don't know how the SARH issue will be dealt with though, it's a very messy problem code-wise, IMHO. Anything you do to fix it potentially breaks something else, but I don't think all possibilities are exhausted yet.

 

Already though I think we are seeing better performance in testing thanks to rocket tuning - I don't want to venture to guess why, more testing is needed.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^^

 

Yep, there are 'worked before' things that need to be fixed now.

 

I don't know how the SARH issue will be dealt with though, it's a very messy problem code-wise, IMHO. Anything you do to fix it potentially breaks something else, but I don't think all possibilities are exhausted yet.

 

Already though I think we are seeing better performance in testing thanks to rocket tuning - I don't want to venture to guess why, more testing is needed.

 

I always thought the missile speed impacts the Doppler effect and clutter filtering. The faster they generally are less decoyable.

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be so much nicer reading these sort of threads if everyone left their ego, national pride, politics, aircraft favoritism, and black and white thinking at the door and focused on a fair assessment of the facts as we can best determine them.

 

If there's a problem with the missiles we should be engaged in a collaborative effort that is as free from bias and uncharitable interpretations as possible, and based upon a mutual understanding of what does and what doesn't constitute actionable evidence. That is the crux of the matter: some sort of standard of evidence and argumentation needs to be agreed upon before anything meaningful can be produced. Some understand this, some are closer than others, some are way off.

 

Self-awareness is the key. But, this is the Internet, where of course my plane is better than yours, so screw you!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You re right Crescendo, and you forgot to tell: left behind the "green" interests and continue thinking in a real simulation, and not let the game go to the investors interests (IMHO!). I began the last series of complains in this area of the forum, and my complain was about F-15C RWR, and I gave two testimonials of two american pilots, Lt Col Delko and Lt Col. Rodriguez. For what I know (I dont have any prove on paper) what I can tell you, is the Mig-29A and UB and 23ML dont change frequency or waveform when they lock than when they shot a missile from BVR, and the missile do not return any radio signal to the shooter so you cant know where it is during the 70 to 80% of the flight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

This is a simple concept, people, just get it already, ED got it, modeled it realistically as close as to how it is in real life.

 

Again, we need the supporting systems for these older missiles that increase their Kill Probability. Such systems as GCI and Datalink between the fighters and allowing for supporting each others missiles. A GCI launched ER at a bandit, will not warn him until it's Semi-Active stage, it will fly to it initially with the data provided by GCI....

 

Bollocks.

 

All GCI does in combination with the aircraft radar is to provide range and a steerpoint to target in order to narrow down the search area, but the radar still needs to locate the target by itself and acquire a solid STT lock before a SARH missile can be launched. Datalink between fighters does practically the same - just sharing target information. None of the flyable Russian fighters in the game can support each other's missiles - the WCS won't let you fire a missile unless you have a solid STT lock for SARH support.

 

....without Zhuk illuminating

 

If any of the Russian fighters in the game had Zhuk radars, there would be little point in bothering with SARH missiles in the first place :)

JJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...