Coordinated turns vs. FM

Nasty habits? I doubt it.

I could repeat myself again, but I think I have explained it more than often enough, just check my statistics, I'm sure you will find a couple of threads where I explained in detail why this is the case. If you can proof me wrong I'd love to hear it, I'm never shy of admitting a mistake and learn something new. But rest assured it is very nasty habits.

I am not saying that you are wrong. It's obvious that the model is flawed, i have seen the development and the issues.

However I don't see why flying it right now will cause "nasty habits".

While there "may" yet be some FM issues to be resolved, I believe the majority have been fixed and/or refined.

It is much more flyable now than it was 2 months ago.

I'm still not that good with it but I can fly it. I just have to learn how to kill with it (and not be seen first and getting killed for it). But then I didn't have much better success in the BlackShark either.

Anyway, unlike the situation a couple months ago, I think you could very well benefit from flying NOW. I don't think you will learn any dirty habits that will stand out with future FM updates.

However, I do recommend learning to fly the Huey first (if you have that opportunity). It is much easier to learn to fly and hover and will greatly improve your chances of figuring out the Gazelle (albeit it a different/opposite anti-Torque / Rudder requirement).

I am not saying that you are wrong. It's obvious that the model is flawed, i have seen the development and the issues.

 

However I don't see why flying it right now will cause "nasty habits".

It wont cause bad habits at least not permanent bad habits. When the FM changes those bad habits will just not work well with the "new" FM and it will be obvious. The DCS models are perfectly fluid and allow great feed back.

The Gazelle is still the most fun to fly.

While there "may" yet be some FM issues to be resolved, I believe the majority have been fixed and/or refined.

It is much more flyable now than it was 2 months ago.

I'm still not that good with it but I can fly it. I just have to learn how to kill with it (and not be seen first and getting killed for it). But then I didn't have much better success in the BlackShark either.

 

Anyway, unlike the situation a couple months ago, I think you could very well benefit from flying NOW. I don't think you will learn any dirty habits that will stand out with future FM updates.

 

However, I do recommend learning to fly the Huey first (if you have that opportunity). It is much easier to learn to fly and hover and will greatly improve your chances of figuring out the Gazelle (albeit it a different/opposite anti-Torque / Rudder requirement).

The only part I agree with you is learning the huey first, because it is a great platform that really teaches you how helicopters generally want to be treated. It's controls deflection are huge compared to most other models and response is rather mellow. It will teach you very nice reflexes that should more or less work with most helicopters you will ever fly (I am NOT saying they will fly the same, they only share a bunch of fundamentals).

Please differenciate between "flyable" and "realistic". The missing cross-coupling of controls is a severe flaw. There is no blowback effect, collective is more centered than not most of the time regardless speed (every speed would require a different cyclic position in any helicopter), if you apply aft cyclic to slow down while lowering collective will still have the gazelle continue rolling backwards, if you had the altitude it would continue doing a complete loop and more. Collective still has no influence on pitch-attitude at all ...

I'm glad you find it flyable, i still find it unrealistic and fundamentally wrong in some areas ...

Without sas, you are are right, with sas I am not sure.

Without sas, you are are right, with sas I am not sure.

I would probably agree here too, tough to know with the SAS, it was supposed be effective.

The SAS will come into play for sure, but afaik it is not supposed to cancel those effects completely but dampen them (I'd be surprised if it was not basically a PID controller). For instance, the EC135 or BK117 use SAS as well and those effects are still very much present, although dampened a lot. You still need to apply fwd cyclic on all of them in forward flight, even on the ka50 which also has some kind of sas, even though its not called sas but attitude hold.

Apart from that, switching sas and gyro off still does not show the behaviour I described.

I think it's granted that SAS Off behavior is poorly modelled, if not simply absent.

And I agree SAS on feels far too perfect on Gaz' atm, to the point certain things feel simply non modelled as well.

But otoh, maybe we are used to overmodelling of said effects in the other modules, even if only a tad bit.

Conjectures, as I'm not a RL pilot by any mean.

The SAS will come into play for sure, but afaik it is not supposed to cancel those effects completely but dampen them (I'd be surprised if it was not basically a PID controller). For instance, the EC135 or BK117 use SAS as well and those effects are still very much present, although dampened a lot. You still need to apply fwd cyclic on all of them in forward flight, even on the ka50 which also has some kind of sas, even though its not called sas but attitude hold.

 

Apart from that, switching sas and gyro off still does not show the behaviour I described.

I would generally agree,

The KA-50 as most all machines are different to this airframe and I find no reason to compare the Huey, MI-8 and KA-50 to this machine.

It is an agile, fast accelerating, fast climbing machine, that much we know for sure. Not as agile as the MD500 but the MD500 is left in the dust when it comes to acceleration and climb.

There is no comparison between this machine and modern machines .... that is clear..... it all became easy after this machine and this needs to be documented correctly.

Only the machine, the SA-342 need concern us.... it is what we want perfectly modelled. We want it top notch!

Although, having said that, in this sim, one thing the fantastic MI-8 does have in common with the Gazelle is the small usable cyclic radius..... I really think this is superb as it allows total control of the chopper in Hover, cruise, top speed and extreme manoeuvres.