Reworked Cockpit Views with proper Neck

Yes , you are right,

that the Head is attached to the neck directly under your ears when looking from the side...

 

But,

 

 

 

this doesn't say anything about the pivot point of your eyes.

What you are saying is only true if you had a absolute stiff neck.

 

Look at this image:

 

I hope you now understand that the pivot-point can placed anywhere between your shoulders any ears.

 

So I decided to place the pivot/fulcrum point at the average,

just Between this two extreems

 

Another example for thoughts about 'where is the pivot point for its eyes ?':

 

 

 

Feel free to edit the values to your liking - the Info I have provided in posting one should be detailed enough to find the right files/lines.

What you are showing there, in the human profile (rh image), is the pivot point on the shoulder... notice how the eyes present foward

the Giraffe has a "gooseneck", (much longer form of human neck) with the same pivot point on the shoulder and neck :music_whistling:

What you are showing there, in the human profile (rh image), is the pivot point on the shoulder... notice how the eyes present forward

 

the Giraffe has a "gooseneck", (much longer form of human neck) with the same pivot point on the shoulder and neck :music_whistling:

...and?

>>>

About the 16cm...

Well its maybe not the right value in all occasions as your neck is not a static parameter and can vastly change within seconds...

We have disused this already (and probably do it again... ):

>>> http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1656534&postcount=62

 

 

But as long the neck is only a static thing in DCS we have to set it to something like the average of possible distances...

 

-That's the main reason why I want to "rewrite" the server.lua to set global values and make it easy to change them all at once by editing a single value - so noone is forced to use what feels right for me.

 

..are you just posting something to get a reply, or are you also reading the contend before you post...

So - please - what is your point?

btw - the main importance is not the position of the pivot point. Its the distance between the eye-position and the pivot point.

>>>

Info how to change min/max FOV aka Zoom and Neck dimension :

 

Open

...\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Config\View\Server.lua

 

And edit new added line #6 and #7 - see the annotations for explanation.

--/////////////////////////////////////// Global View parameters - Start - PeterP ////////////////////////////////

local EyePoint_with_proper_Neck = {0.16, 0.1, 0.0} -- {front/back , up/down , left/right} <-in meters

local GlobalCameraViewAngleLimits = {20,160} -- {min FOV in °, max FOV in °} <- aka Zoom

 

--/////////////////////////////////////// Global View parameters - End - PeterP //////////////////////////////////

see - you are able to change anything you like (what's within the limits of DCS) - so why a restart of the discussion you started already some moons ago , and I answered as best I could ?

>>>

>>>http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1656379#post1656379

>>>

And when you just want to trigger that I show you more - well - that's not working ...

Now it's your turn - you have to show me something.

I can only speculate about your tone - so I think that it's just a misinterpretation - and I don't have any info because we never talked in person .

but what I've seen up to now from you is not enough to spend more time on.

>>>

Great work Peter, I look forward to get the time to tinker with this :-)

I think the 0.16 and 0.10 values are just about right for two of the motions.

0.16 is good when you turn your head horizontaly as it re presents the actual moving of the viewpoint of the eyes with the head that creates this crane like pivot.

the 0.10 is good when you tilt your head lateraly where that crane like shaped pivot of the head moves the eyes lateraly altogether.

however there are other two motions that don't get well represented with these settings:

when you raise/tilt your hea vertically to see at your six in a turn/dogfight... to look to your lift vector sort of speak then you have a little problem... DCS does not model your eye balls tilting further... so you are left with a much smaller degree of movement of the view. Same happens when you want to look down... say you want to check the fuel tanks in P51.

if you don't have a neck set at 0.10 when you raise your head say 60 degrees then you view tilts 60 degrees from horizontal upwards but if you have you have the neck set at 0.10 then you pivot point is a bit lower and tilting 60 degrees up means 60 degrees from vertical towards back and this in turn tilts the actual line of sight which is the horizontal line (the 0.16 long line) upwards but less degrees.

So for horizontal movements these settings are very good but for vertical are a bit limiting. And I don't have any ideas how to overcom it... unless eye rolling is implemented somehow :) .

Another bypass to this is to set two center points with freetrack/tir one a bit down for lookiny at instruments and one a bit up for general flight.

Yes - ...:)...:( there is nothing that I/We(?) can do about it .. It's the Headtrackerinterface and/or the Natural-point software that doesn't makes a exact translation relative to your virtual Eye-position,

- it only tracks absolute position of the tracker but doesn't turns the X/Z axis relative to my eyes when moving around - that's the main culprit why you still have to lean left to look right when checking your six - means that you turned around 180° with your virtual Head - but you still have to behave to the absolute position of the camera in front of you -

there is a software that allows you to tell the the tracker when you turned virtually 180 - so it could be recalculated. - it's a pity that natural-point just waits to (maybe) only implement it in TrackIR6 - just for the software (!) and than our IR cams will get useless again

... and Natural-point tells us that we have to buy new cams (With a incredible 800x600 120hz resolution..(!).)

...Tha'ts what's bugs me - If natural-point would be honest and tells me that they need 60€ for the software development - I would pay.. but instead of this they look the IR cam for any upgrades ,even if it is still in mint condition, and tell me that I need a new cam...

...BTW my 8years old TrackIR2 cam still works flawless with Freetrack and 6DOF....

Anyway - The purpose of the Edits I have made are not to fix this issues you are naming.

That was there from the beginning... They are independent - the neck gives you just another 'freedom' that wasn't there before and let you fell more "natural" in the cockpit.

I agree with you PeterP. I wonder if messing even more with the TIR settings in View.lua and the Freetrack Software could not overcome a bit more this.

Also I am thinking to test today with only 0.5 neck elongation... if it works it will just mean I am a bit shorter in neck... nothing wrong with it... is not about the neck is about the confidence you have when you walk towards that woman anyway... :D .

No problem at all ! viewing is a very subjective thing - our culture and socialisation makes it only objective...

A smaller person sees the world (not absolutely, but) different from what I see - and ...

...I distract again :)

That's why I wanted to add the "local EyePoint_with_proper_Neck" line that enables everyone to find 'their own values' .

Even if it is only 1 or 2 centimetres - everyone has his own view experience - and the human brain is very good to distinguish if something feels wrong or right , even if it is sometimes hard to exactly say what's wrong. - You will still notice that something isn't right and it will not let you feel as good as you would like to. ...

- this mod has the only purpose to make this discrepancy a little smaller - and everyone should be encouraged to choose their own setting that fits to them.

 

see - you are able to change anything you like (what's within the limits of DCS) - so why a restart of the discussion you started already some moons ago , and I answered as best I could ?

 

Actually, you started the discussion and used false terms in relating your efforts to something which is not correct, then invited further discussion. You haven't created a "proper neck"... all you have done is move the "head on stick" forward (or back, as it may be).

With the top and bottom of the neck, plus the eyes themselves, there are three pivot points, and a "goose neck", to work with.

 

 

I can only speculate about your tone - so I think that it's just a misinterpretation - and I don't have any info because we never talked in person .

but what I've seen up to now from you is not enough to spend more time on.

 

>>>

speculation and arrogance isn't very efficient

if we bent a pipe we call it with a neck... but if we bent the pivot point that happens to be where the virtual pilots neck is and upon which it turns, is wrong to call it a neck? what is this? semantics 101? you're out of beer tonight?

Actually, you started the discussion and used false terms in relating your efforts to something which is not correct, then invited further discussion. You haven't created a "proper neck"... all you have done is move the "head on stick" forward (or back, as it may be).

With the top and bottom of the neck, plus the eyes themselves, there are three pivot points, and a "goose neck", to work with.

 

speculation and arrogance isn't very efficient

Are you for real? Are you actually starting a quite honest, rtarded discussion with one of the top free-mod contributers on this forum? :huh:

Go do something else[period]

Are you for real? Are you actually starting a quite honest, rtarded discussion with one of the top free-mod contributers on this forum? :huh:

 

Go do something else[period]

I really appreciate your backup , but the post-count and status of a person shouldn't never be a criteria if you start a discussion or not.

Everyone can overlook/miss something - this happens all the time - and I'm not free of it.

-I got very similar advises three years ago ... If I remember correctly one of them was that I shouldn't tell the devs how the rudder-trim in the Ka-50 works. And I'm very glad that I didn't followed any of them >>> (...)

and most imported : I'm sure able to speak for myself :) a reply like yours only let situations escalate and make the things bigger as they are.

and I have to admit - my replys are not always free of it... anyway:

No one should be really interested to have a escalation in a thread that is almost 100 posts long. - heck , Its our hobby we are talking about.

Actually, you started the discussion and used false terms in relating your efforts to something which is not correct, then invited further discussion. You haven't created a "proper neck"... all you have done is move the "head on stick" forward (or back, as it may be).

With the top and bottom of the neck, plus the eyes themselves, there are three pivot points, and a "goose neck", to work with.

 

 

 

 

speculation and arrogance isn't very efficient

Wolfrider,

So you would be happy IF I called it "Popper head dimensions for DCS " or similar ?

Further - What are you talking about exactly ?

I See you are naming Three pivot points , are you talking about real life or what is possible inside of DCS ?

IF you are talking what nature has to offer for us in terms to move your Head around... - well you are partly right , but this is not a medical lesson, Its about DCS and I pointed already out the limitations what's possible inside DCS.

If you have missed it -

Please read my postings with more than placative illustrations and explanations again. -

Than think about it , ...and once again , and make your own tests.

Than tell me what I should do in your opinion - because I still didn't get your point(s) at all how this fits into this discussion.

And its more a mathematical problem as a biological one - so no need for putting in emotions - numbers don't need them to be right or wrong.

Whatever I try - I can only find one pivot point in DCS and that Ijust tried to make the best out of given options.

Have a look:

...I think we can call this a big improvement.

If you are not satisfied - be more constructive and come up with something better,

But discussing about pivot points that are not available is just a waste of your time.

PS : what you interpret as arrogance is simply being honest with you.

Now lets please get back on topic.

Did someone have a go with my latest 1.2.4 edits? (I count 56 downloads of the the Beta files)

If yes : Please Please tell me which cockpits need a closer look. and which axis.

For simplification:

Copy and paste following table and mark red what needs a rework and a line or tow of info .

Example:

A10C

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:I'm able to go with my head through the canopy - needs shorter limits.

Another example:

P51D

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:I'm not able to read the fuel gauges properly and My Eyes are going through the head rest when looking at my six.

Thanks!

Here is the list that you can copy'n'paste:

A-10A

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

A-10C

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

F-15C

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

P-51D

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

MIG-29A and S

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Su-25

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Su-25T

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Su-27

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Su-33

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Ka-50

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

UH-1H

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

 

Some of you may ask : "Why he need to re-edit this parameters?!"

Then I will answer: " That's because when I add these (e.g.) 16cm to the pivot point DCS don't know about it and your eyes will be sitting 16 cm more in front and also to the sides when you look around - so it can very quickly happen that you have your eyes sticking trough a panel or through the canopy." - That's it.

NP - everything is fine - just to let you know: I contacted a moderator to move our conversation in a appropriate thread or create a new one- as I think many people are interested in your nifty cockpit you have there ;).

So...

Once again:

Did someone have a go with my latest 1.2.4 edits? (I count 56 downloads of the the Beta files)

 

If yes : Please Please tell me which cockpits need a closer look. and which axis.

 

For simplification:

 

Copy and paste following table and mark red what needs a rework and a line or tow of info .

 

Example:

A10C

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:I'm able to go with my head through the canopy - needs shorter limits.

Another example:

P51D

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:I'm not able to read the fuel gauges properly and My Eyes are going through the head rest when looking at my six.

This would vastly help me save tomorrow a lot of time when I will re-edit the cockpit limits.

 

Thanks!

 

Here is the list that you can copy'n'paste:

 

A-10A

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

A-10C

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

F-15C

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

P-51D

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

MIG-29A and S

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Su-25

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Su-25T

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Su-27

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Su-33

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

Ka-50

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

UH-1H

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info:

 

PS:

Some of you may ask : "Why he need to re-edit this parameters?!"

 

Then I will answer: " That's because when I add these (e.g.) 16cm to the pivot point DCS don't know about it and your eyes will be sitting 16 cm more in front and also to the sides when you look around - so it can very quickly happen that you have your eyes sticking trough a panel or through the canopy." - That's it.

Install instructions and files for 1.2.4 are still reachable through the first link in posting#1

 

 

 

-I got very similar advises three years ago ... If I remember correctly one of them was that I shouldn't tell the devs how the rudder-trim in the Ka-50 works. And I'm very glad that I didn't followed any of them >>> (...)

 

Wolfrider,

So you would be happy IF I called it "Popper head dimensions for DCS " or similar ?

Further - What are you talking about exactly ?

I See you are naming Three pivot points , are you talking about real life or what is possible inside of DCS ?

IF you are talking what nature has to over for us in terms to move your Head around... - well you are partly right , but this is not a medical lesson, Its about DCS and I pointed already out the limitations what's possible inside DCS.

 

 

 

 

Whatever I try - I can only find one pivot point in DCS and that Ijust tried to make the best out of given options.

 

 

 

If you are not satisfied - be more constructive and come up with something better,

 

 

 

 

Which is why you cannot call it a "proper neck" mod, and do so by your own words... it is in reality just a viewpoint shift. Reflect, PeterP, what the mod actually is in your title

@Zaelu...

You mention semantics but you also point out in an earlier post the flaws associated with the mod not being a proper neck

Wolfrider,

Thank you for answering all my questions. That's exactly what I have expected .

..I hope you don't mind my short response, as I have now something of more importance to do - like screeching my neck and/or opening a beer.

(sorry I didn't decided up to now what to do first while I'm typing - so I can't tell it exactly in which order I do it -I bet you understand this - and I also hope that you, while reading these letters ,understand now how I felt by reading your last response. - it must be this same mixture of disbelieve and astonishment you maybe have now too)

Have a good morning at the opposite where I'm sitting now.

Again: thanks for your input! - no need to respond

Hope it all works out PeterP, hate flying the Hog with the default head positioning.

Hope it all works out PeterP, hate flying the Hog with the default head positioning.

Well - wanna help?! :bounce::smilewink:

>>> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1745173#post1745173

I have a very tight time-frame the next week and I want to push this mod out as soon as I can.

When I cant do it till Thursday it will have to wait for the next 8-10 days.

@Zaelu...

 

You mention semantics but you also point out in an earlier post the flaws associated with the mod not being a proper neck

My post was about not being completely satisfied by the results not hair splinting on the words means.

@PeterP

I didn't had much time yesterday for testing... is Passover here and (although I'm an atheist myself) we had few meetings with friends etc... today is a bit of the same.

However I wanted to say that it might be the case that many people here get scared by those multiple complicated digits numbers and maybe it should be said that those numbers are generated by the game because of the player using a TIR/Freetrack and having minor movements all the times. Their "precision" is not always mandatory so one could actually modify those lines with simpler more rounded numbers. So people shouldn't be afraid of those digits :D .

I like rounded 5 10 numbers so here are some examples from my end:

server.lua

ViewSettings["P-51D"] = {

Cockpit = {

[1] = {-- player slot 1

CockpitLocalPoint = {-1.500000,0.618000,0.000000},

CameraViewAngleLimits = {20.000000,90.000000}, -FOV/ZOOM min max

CameraAngleRestriction = {false,90.000000,0.500000},

CameraAngleLimits = {140.000000,-65.000000,90.000000},

EyePoint = {0.100000,0.050000,0.000000}, -Neck 0.1 from eyes to back of the head, 0.5 the lenght of the neck

limits_6DOF = {x = {-0.050000,0.450000},y ={-0.200000,0.200000},z = {-0.220000,0.220000},roll = 90.000000},

},

SnapViews.lua

 

SnapViews["P-51D"] = {

[1] = {-- player slot 1

[13] = {--default view

viewAngle = 90.000000,--FOV

hAngle = 0.000000,

vAngle = -10.000000, --Head tilted down 10%

x_trans = 0.050000, --head moved towards dashboard 0.05

y_trans = 0.050000, --Head moved upwards 0.05

z_trans = -0.000000,

rollAngle = -0.000000,

},

 

My post was about not being completely satisfied by the results not hair splinting on the words means.

 

Well, you are the one who raised "semantics", so it looks like you are hair splitting on something... flaws/ not being satisfied, perhaps?

anyways... how does this viewpoint (not proper neck) mod work with TIR5 software with Newview enabled?

Thanks Zealu,

but *sigh* - I hope you understand ;) :

Why it's so easy to make things complicated but so hard to make things easy ?

...

I never asked someone to edit the server.lua and there no need at all to manually edit the snapviews - I already enabled the snapviews save function in the provided files.

There is no reason to do it via a file edit any more.

Set up your preferred FOV and eye-position by using the numpad keys and than simply press [R-Alt + Num0 ].

Easy , Isn't it?

I just asked people to share their observations with me - whatever -seems no one of the 60 people that have downloaded the files are able to do it (Yes! - add a picture of a sad clown right >Here<)

, so I will climb into each cockpit my own now - make my notes - change things here and there - and reloade DCS - just to see what I have missed and start over again, and so on.

:)

Peter, i´m one of the Downloaders + Users of the 1.2.4 Beta Files, which i´m using for the A-10C. I would like to help you in Development, of course, but i have no Clue how to give you some constructive Feedback, which you can work with, but i will try it with your Copy / Paste Table as good as i can.

A-10C

Front/Back | Up/down | Left/Right

Info: When looking right, down and forward e.g on the CDU-Panel, i can move my Head too much forward to the Panel. That wasn´t the Case in the 1.2.3 Version, where i felt more strapped into the Seat. Now it feels a little bit unnatural (atleast for me).

I´m using a TIR5 without Zoom View on the TIR Z-Axis. My used Profile is from Matt (unedited).

Dunno if that helps. Please let me know.

That's is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for to make myself a better opinion what to edit and/or what I'm missing , thanks!

And I'm Already edited it - but keep in mind that I have to open the view-limits a little regarding to what is possible in RL , as the folks that create their own quick-snap views for different panels have still the possibility to do so.

So Iit's always a compromise between a strapped-in position and usability for low-res screens (e.g. single 1920x1080).

I'm also a user that tends to use smaller limits that have no compromise and reflects your movement of a strapped-in pilot. as I use a T-shape setup and have the available resolution to not have to zoom in at all while having everything readable.

... There is a high possibility that I will add a pre-set that has no compromises at a later stage - but first I try to please everyone.

Glad to help.

Ah yes, i forgot to mention : I´m on one Screen @ 1920 x 1080, so i´m a low-res Man. :D

About the Head Movement Limits, i´m absolutely with you. Even if i have to zoom via the

WH Throttle Slider to read the MFCD´s properly. But overall it feels more "real".

Have a nice rest-WE.

BETA 0.4 for 1.2.4 is up

Follow this link >>> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.ph...59#post1743059

A-10C

Front/Back Up/down Left/Right

Info: positioned high in seat. See only fire control handles up when re centered.Seem to be closer and higher on head rest, but still able to lean extremely close to front panels and joystick.

using beta 0.4