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Air-to-Air Missile Discussion


Shein

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You know what the 'right' performance of these birds is? LOL :)

 

It's really amusing how one guy is implying F-15's were running scared from the all-powerful MiG while the other one calls the same MiGs export POS and the pilots flying them incompetent.

Why these two things exclude each other? It was well known in 1999 that an F-15 is far superior to serbian MiGs, still it poses a quite real threat and if you go against them like"oh I have amraam and TWS what can happen, continue read newspapers" you might be right in the end, but not safe.

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Did your reliable source tell you what RWRs do to warn you?

Did your reliable source tell you what an F-15 radar does when trying to launch an AIM-7 and why (hint: it might not change waveform either depending on circumstances, but it has reason to try in other cases!)?

Did they explain to you that a radar that doesn't change waveform = say hello to lost missiles unless fairly close in a bunch of circumstances?

Did they tell you that the time-to-die meter belongs in western RWRs, not in the Russian one you have in the game?

Did they tell you how much is missing from the western RWR?

Did they tell you the russian RWR shouldn't be issuing a missile launch warning either under the same circumstances?

Did they tell you the russian RWR might not be able to warn you about an AIM-120 going active?

 

I don't know why I would need to be told how it works as end result would not change knowing why it happens... knowing that once you're locked you won't know when and if missile is actually fired is what is important, not why it is like that.

 

Do you need to be told why, when you press power button on TV remote, TV turns on? No, you don't... all you need to know is that TV turns on when you press that button (provided you have working equipment and bateries :D).. do I make my point?

 

This in fact can be changed in sim and it is not hard, simple change would be audible tone changed for STT lock to be the same as missile launch warning... very easy code adjustment... but this change would affect how you react in engagement.

 

That other stuff you ask... not related to warning tone on RWR when locked in STT vs SARH missile being fired at you... keep in mind I am not whining, just stating one piece of important info which is from realiable source, which is not an opinion, opinon is when you say "USAAF pilots say AMRAAM is virtual death when fired at 8nm". If they said "from 100 launches of AMRAAM during tests that are fired within 8nm, all missiles achieved a hit" now that would not be an opinion... it's fact of what actually happened... same as with "when you are locked by Russian fighter in STT you get missile launch warning and there is no different warning tone for when he actually launched a missile"... that is also a fact of what RWR does in that situation.


Edited by Kuky

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even with a better TEWS than the F-15C simulated in FC3. (RE: F-117A)

 

1. The F-117 does not carry TEWS; TEWS is an integrated RWR and jammer package. The F-117 has no jammer, as such a system is in opposition to the concept behind stealth.

 

2. Given that you don't know the difference of a mere RWR versus what constitutes the F-15C's TEWS, I'd invite you to tell me exactly *what* RWR system is employed by the F-117 (if any), and provide us a general rundown of its detection capabilities. Zelko doesn't- he's refused in interview, because whatever the Nighthawk has in that capacity is still classified as it is still considered part of the inventory and is stored as such.

 

However, whatever capability it does have must be reasonably decent, because it directed his attention to be able to see *both* missiles in flight. From this, you're welcome to ascertain whatever opinion you wish on the system, and the raw maneuvering performance of the F-117.

 

Another prove is that in the gulf war two F-15 approach ahead to two irakies MIG-29 and one of the F-15C (Lt. Col Rico Rodriguez), received the lock from one MIG-29 and inmediately began evasing maneuvers because he thought that a missile was launched, NOT by the TEWS signal!.

 

The representation included in that television show is in partial contravention to more detailed accounts provided at the time (their respective AARs) and in interviews conducted later. Further, there is nothing in that episode that *states Rodriguez felt there may have been a missile inbound*, so you need to pay attention.

 

Rodriguez was turning because he was engaged defensive against a potential enemy aircraft and had not yet received clearance to fire; had he done so, he'd may well have taken a shot himself. However, he's not going to sit around and chance a shot with no reply if his wingman has separation and can shoot (if he gets a call). Thus, his turn started before the "hostile" call was received from AWACS/Rivet giving Mole the opportunity to unload his Sparrow. At better than five miles of separation prior to his turn, he'd have never seen a launch.

 

(Further, there's a piece of photographic evidence out there that more than likely puts the lie to your contention based on how the MiG-29's controls operate, and more than justifying his turn, but the folks in the know won't say yes to the pertinent question; check back in another twelve years at a bare minimum.)

 

Contrast this with the event less than ninety seconds later, in which Rico and Mole stared down a second MiG-29, with the Fulcrum having fixated on Mole right up to the part where the other F-15 was no more than a few hundred feet in front of him. The contact had not fired at Mole, otherwise he'd have gone defensive; he had plenty of useful vertical separation to deny a shot, and held that position throughout his role as support during the engagement.

 

TEWS can tell.

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Datalink between the Russian fighters would be a game changer.

Launching and supporting each others missiles as well.

 

Except that none of the flyable Russian fighters in the game(MiG-29, Su-27/33) have such a datalink capability in reality.

 

A CGI is not needed as an EWR/AWAC is already simulated.

 

I disagree - the fact is that the MiG-29 was designed to be operated as part of a GCI network, which is reflected in the operating modes of its onboard radar, so for a proper simulation you would need GCI to get the "full picture" of the aircraft.

 

As for the rest - I don't have FC3, so I cannot comment on the individual behaviour of one missiles versus another in the game.

 

Yea, Zhuk is newer, it's the N001 Myech (Sword).

It's the same company named Phazotron and so I call all of their Flanker/MiG radars Zhuks.

 

Well its N001 for the Su-27/33 and N019 for the MiG-29. But they are not from the same company - N001 is by a company called NIIP, while the N019 was made by another company called NIIR - during Soviet times both these companies(along with other in the same field) were attached to an umbrella organisation called "Phazotron".

 

"Zhuk" is the name for a new line of radars made by NIIR - it includes both slotted array and phased array sets.

JJ

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Do you need to be told why, when you press power button on TV remote, TV turns on? No, you don't... all you need to know is that TV turns on when you press that button (provided you have working equipment and bateries :D).. do I make my point?
There's reams of information about how RWRs work and why they do what they do. It's not easy to find, and it doesn't necessarily pertain to a specific system. If you're happy to ignore why a given piece of equipment works the way it works, then perhaps you shouldn't be suggesting how to simulate said piece of equipment.

It's like saying that all you need to know for simulating flight is that pulling the stick towards you pulls up.

 

That other stuff you ask... not related to warning tone on RWR when locked in STT vs SARH missile being fired at you... keep in mind I am not whining, just stating one piece of important info which is from realiable source, which is not an opinion, opinon is when you say "USAAF pilots say AMRAAM is virtual death when fired at 8nm". If they said "from 100 launches of AMRAAM during tests that are fired within 8nm, all missiles achieved a hit" now that would not be an opinion... it's fact of what actually happened... same as with "when you are locked by Russian fighter in STT you get missile launch warning and there is no different warning tone for when he actually launched a missile"... that is also a fact of what RWR does in that situation.
Oh, they told you the RWR isn't going to warn you? :)
Edited by GGTharos

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FM is something different. Why compare it to this? And again you are talking about things I never mentioned. I will repeat one more time for you... if you are locked by Russian fighter (granted I am assuming it's MiG/Su27 as these are the Russian threats) you get no difference on tone warning when missile is fired. For this I don't need to know how RWR works... if this was in game the difference between then and now is that if I am in 27 and I lock you, you should get one/same warning tone if I fired the missile or not.

 

Now you can go and explain why this is so..


Edited by Kuky

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Because it isn't different. If you want to flick your TV on and off all day, be my guest - I want to emulate the remote on my tablet, so I need to know how it works. I can give you tons of other examples - what you're saying is like saying that all you need to know about BVR is that if you push the missile launch button, the bandit will fall out of the sky. Wait, I have more: If you turn the radar on, it should show you where everyone is! Or how about if you drop flares, the missile won't hit you.

 

You're still not getting it - this is a simulation, and in terms of simulating stuff, everything is the same: You need to know how it works.

 

There are plenty of things that can be used to issue a missile launch warning, and you're just sitting there stuck on assuming that the RWR has to do things only one way :) You should talk to your reliable source some more ... and you're not the only one with those.

 

FM is something different. Why compare it to this? And again you are talking about things I never mentioned. I will repeat one more time for you... if you are locked by Russian fighter (granted I am assuming it's MiG/Su27 as these are the Russian threats) you get no difference on tone warning when missile is fired. For this I don't need to know how RWR works... if this was in game the difference between then and now is that if I am in 27 and I lock you, you should get one/same warning tone if I fired the missile or not.

 

Now you can go and explain why this is so...


Edited by GGTharos

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The range on EOS is really good and the ERs can be launched from it, the radar will automatically turn on, which is good enough.

 

Which brings me to an older point about how this ranging in EOS mode is accomplished. IIRC, when the target is locked in BVR EOS mode, the distance is shown like the radar was operational, but it is not. I know there's a laser ranger, but I doubt it has such a range (i.e. over 10 km).

 

Also, is this laser ranging automatic or it can be controlled on the real aircraft? IIRC, it was disabled on Luftwaffe MiG-29s. It's not really a stealth approach in case the target has a LWR receiver, though probably in the 80s and early 90s those were not installed on aircraft, I presume.

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What causes a launch warning then as pertinent to Amraam and R27? I have often wondered what causes a launch warning if the 27 is passive gudance only and the STT lock is unchanged. The thepry that there is nothing to give away a launch is entirely plausible. It also strikes me a possibility that if I were a systems designer and I knew what caused an opposing launch warning then I may want to simulate that in certain circumstances (say low on missiles or adding to helmet fire/uncertainty etc).

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The first question to actually ask is 'does an RWR set (or a specific one) generate a missile launch warning'.

 

If the answer is 'no', things are simple. If the answer is 'yes', things aren't so simple.

 

What causes a launch warning then as pertinent to Amraam and R27? I have often wondered what causes a launch warning if the 27 is passive gudance only and the STT lock is unchanged. The thepry that there is nothing to give away a launch is entirely plausible. It also strikes me a possibility that if I were a systems designer and I knew what caused an opposing launch warning then I may want to simulate that in certain circumstances (say low on missiles or adding to helmet fire/uncertainty etc).

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What causes a launch warning then as pertinent to Amraam and R27? I have often wondered what causes a launch warning if the 27 is passive gudance only and the STT lock is unchanged. The thepry that there is nothing to give away a launch is entirely plausible. It also strikes me a possibility that if I were a systems designer and I knew what caused an opposing launch warning then I may want to simulate that in certain circumstances (say low on missiles or adding to helmet fire/uncertainty etc).

 

In case the semi-active radar guided variant of R-27 was fired from a distance greater than it's seeker range, I'd presume you'd have mid course updates sent to the missile by the launching platform so these could be one of the things used to alert the RWR system. And since the radar can't track the missile's distance from the target, maybe those signals are sent always following the missile launch and for a certain amount of time (relative to the speed and maximum range of the missile being fired).

 

As most of the related documentation are in Russian, just guessing here while waiting to be enlightened by those in the know.. :)


Edited by Dudikoff

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In case the semi-active radar guided variant of R-27 was fired from a distance greater than it's seeker range, I'd presume you'd have mid course updates sent to the missile by the launching platform so these could be one of the things used to alert the RWR system. And since the radar can't track the missile's distance from the target, maybe those signals are sent always following the missile launch and for a certain amount of time (relative to the speed and maximum range of the missile being fired).

 

As most of the related documentation are in Russian, just guessing here while waiting to be enlightened by those in the know.. :)

 

but couldn't you constantly transmit the same type of signal the moment a lock is achieved, why would you need yo switch frequencies?

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Here are some implications:

 

An RWR might generate a launch warning tone or an 'in lethal zone' tone based on STT + Signal strength. While not ideal, it works.

 

A missile like R-27R that has to be guided in HPRF is prone to countermeasures, especially with aspect change. At the ranges the R is used at aspect may be less of an issue, but more advanced radars attempt to do things to keep their SARH going - but this also implies that SARH range against rear aspect targets is limited at high altitudes by having to guide in HPRF.

 

In the WCS of the MiG and Su, AFAIK distance of the missile to target is not tracked. You only have a missile time-out, ie. a count-down of x seconds until missile can no longer be in controlled flight. The missile itself however knows closure and has some notion of distance/time-to-go.

 

This should tell you something about who has more computing power in their radars and missiles, and consequently, other systems like RWRs, jammers etc.

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Because the other guy's jammer just said 'hi' to your radar :)

 

but couldn't you constantly transmit the same type of signal the moment a lock is achieved, why would you need yo switch frequencies?

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Because the other guy's jammer just said 'hi' to your radar :)

 

doesnt that apply anyways, as long as the radar is on?

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Generally speaking, yes, you'd expect the jammer to fire if your RWR detects a spike, with some caveats (most jammers don't offer full coverage). Your missile should be able to deal with the associated frequency-hopping, or perhaps your radar will continue illuminating the target in some special ways, since the jamming signal look much like the signal the missile would home in on (it's basically a replay of your own radar signal) .. but if that jammer is doing 'interesting things', it could actually drive the missile to shoot itself right off target - to understand that part you need to know about guidance algos and what they take into consideration.

 

Take a big bomber like a B-52 ... it can send AIM-7's flying into places where it isn't, and you can probably safely assume it will do the same to R-27's.

 

doesnt that apply anyways, as long as the radar is on?

Edited by GGTharos

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Generally speaking, yes, you'd expect the jammer to fire if your RWR detects a spike, with some caveats (most jammers don't offer full coverage).

 

so you could keep your radar in the same mode as when a missile is launched the moment you lock something?

 

or i guess as long as you are in HPRF, if that is indeed correct.


Edited by karambiatos
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HPRF is only one radar parameter, and even within HPRF you can do things (chirping, frequency hopping, etc). It's all pretty complicated. The less your radar does, the easier it is to jam.

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Lunatic, sorry chap but the F-117 does have an RWR suite, it's RWR Jim but not as we know it... O.o

 

Read what I wrote again- I'm not saying it doesn't. What I want for the individual who states that it's better than TEWS (with both RWR *and* jammer- the latter of which it doesn't have) to state exactly what system it is, and what the capabilities of it are.

 

;)

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Because it isn't different. If you want to flick your TV on and off all day, be my guest - I want to emulate the remote on my tablet, so I need to know how it works. I can give you tons of other examples - what you're saying is like saying that all you need to know about BVR is that if you push the missile launch button, the bandit will fall out of the sky. Wait, I have more: If you turn the radar on, it should show you where everyone is! Or how about if you drop flares, the missile won't hit you.

 

You have to be joking... seriously, I think you're the one that doesn't get it :music_whistling:

 

You are implying that I am saying those things... well I am not (you need to read better)... I am NOT saying "pushing the missile launch button, the bandit will fall out of the sky"... I AM saying "if you push the missile launch button, the missile will launch"... you are skipping steps my friend :book: What happens after the missile is launched is something completely different because pushing missile launch button we know what the outcome will be (if you don't take into account failures where it is possible that missile will not launch but that is again simulating yet another part :smilewink:

 

You are constantly mixing apples and oranges :doh: and you are putting words into people's mouth to try to get your point across.

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1. The F-117 does not carry TEWS; TEWS is an integrated RWR and jammer package. The F-117 has no jammer, as such a system is in opposition to the concept behind stealth.

 

When I told about TEWS I was refering to RWR, sorry, the F-117 has very advanced RWR and he never received any signal from the two incoming S-125 Pechora missiles (SA-3 Goa), that's is what I talking about, the real capability of the american RWR systems to know when a SARH missile was launched.

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In case the semi-active radar guided variant of R-27 was fired from a distance greater than it's seeker range, I'd presume you'd have mid course updates sent to the missile by the launching platform so these could be one of the things used to alert the RWR system. And since the radar can't track the missile's distance from the target, maybe those signals are sent always following the missile launch and for a certain amount of time (relative to the speed and maximum range of the missile being fired)

 

Here is a translation of how the R-27 works:

"The missile is guided to the target by a combination of proportional navigation method: radio controlled inertially guided during the first phase of their trajectory (70% thereof), and at the end the homing head is activated (by semi-active radar or infrared pulse doppler depending on version) and it will continue to guide the missile to its target. Once the missile is at the optimal distance from the enemy aircraft (10 to 15 meters), the active radar fuze detonates the warhead of the missile, consisting expansively explosive shrapnel.

 

This combined approach enables reliable tracking of the target at long distances. The missile can be guided along paths that allow precomputed special conditions for the operation of the seeker head and the proximity fuse. It is able to avoid enemy radar estimated lobe and approach a low-flying object from a certain angle."

 

In this case the american RWR has to know all the radio frequencies used by the inertial flight of the R-27, which I can tell you is variable, and can be adjusted by the pilot prior or during the flight.

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Proof?

 

Here you are:

 

The stealth kill

 

On the particular night of the F-117 shootdown, 27 March 1999, Zoltán Dani broke his own ruleset. He had information about unfavourable Adriatic weather conditions and Serbian spies residing near Italian NATO airbases informed the Serbian Air Defence HQ about lack of EA-6 Prowler electronic jammer and "Wild Weasel" anti-SAM aircraft launches during the late evening. Therefore any F-117s in the air on that fateful night were literally alone in the dark, but with high crew morale due to their invulnerability during previous day's sorties.

In the evening, Dani's P-18 long-distance radar set malfunctioned at 19:05, almost the same time when four F-117s prepared for take-off from Aviano Air Base to attack targets in Belgrade. The repaired P-18 radar returned to air by 19:50 and started to emit at the specially modified lower frequency. Lt. Col. Dale Zelko's plane (tail number 82-0806) and three other F-117 flying northbound were acquired at 20:40 local time and so the SA-3 battery's fire control radar went on air to provide a riding beam for V-601P missile launches. The UNV radar emitted at high frequency for 2 x 20 seconds, but it was unable to obtain a lock on the targets.

Lt. Col. Dani then ordered a third illumination round, against his own rulebook, but knowing that NATO lacked immediate counterstrike capability on the particular occasion. Lock was obtained and at a distance of 13 km and an altitude of 8 km. Two SA-3 missiles were launched in short succession, with one obtaining a proximity fuse hit, as notified by an automatic radio pinger burst. The F-117 was structurally disabled by the sudden minus 6G negative load and stall-crashed in inverted position in an agricultural field, near the village of Budjanovci. The pilot ejected successfully and was rescued later on by NATO Combat search and rescue helicopters. The F-117's large kite-shaped titanium engine outlet heatshield is still kept by Dani in his garage.

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