Enemy aircraft jamming

Why are we seeing these False targets on the Mir 2K when we dont see them on any other aircraft in DCS ?

 

As I understand it in DCS the only jamming modeled is Noise jamming. There are no false target generators in DCS. So imo all we should be seeing are jamming strobes ... like you see for the SU27/MIG29 and F15..... or however the RDI depicts them.

From what I understood it's supposed to change on M-2000C, but you do have "false targets" flickering on MiG 29/ Su 27 HUD in DCS.

Why are we seeing these False targets

As I understand it in DCS the only jamming modeled is Noise jamming.

What do you think "noise jamming" is?

Electric guitars?

Electric guitars?

:megalol:

Go on Eddie tell me .... When I see Jamming strobes all over my B scope I see noise jamming ...... When I see False discreet targets I am not seeing NOISE jamming, That is A false target generator ECM or repetitive jammer doing its stuff , When I see Locked targets rapidly moving I am seeing Range Gate Pull offs working.

Go on Eddie tell me .... When I see Jamming strobes all over my B scope I see noise jamming ...... When I see False discreet targets I am not seeing NOISE jamming, That is A false target generator ECM or repetitive jammer doing its stuff , When I see Locked targets rapidly moving I am seeing Range Gate Pull offs working.

You're right but it has been said it will change.

With a semi active missile if you lock your radar to the noise jamming you will basically have good azimuth and elevation. The TD circle should be over the target if you pull it live into the hud. If the target happens to be low level you can use your altitude to work out when it is in range and take a valid shot. Depending on the missiles programming and the target velocity the jamming may lower the pk however the missile will certainly track the ill reflection from the target. Some missiles will even HOJ themselves.

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Go on Eddie tell me .... When I see Jamming strobes all over my B scope I see noise jamming ...... When I see False discreet targets I am not seeing NOISE jamming, That is A false target generator ECM or repetitive jammer doing its stuff , When I see Locked targets rapidly moving I am seeing Range Gate Pull offs working.

Ok so what you're saying is that the RADAR in the mirage is displaying multiple "targets" simultaneously both false and true over the scope, and not the single line of targets on the scope? If that is case then yes, you're right and I misread your point.

Are you saying you've seen RGPO effects as well? I've not seen either false targets or RGPO effects shown on the scope, only jamming strobes with a very long burn through distance which apparently had no impact on my ability to hold a lock and employ weapons (that is to say, no worse than normal at present). However I've only flown against the A-10C.

IvanK knows his stuff.

Short story: DCS models the range jammer only, nothing else. Not noise (gain decrease), not sidelobe+range (track-breaker/deception).

I think the RAZBAM crew attempted to put their own spin on it :)

Eddie No I have not seen RGPO in DCS. So far the only airraft I have seen with False targets generated is the DCS Mir2K when going up against a DCS jammer.

IvanK knows his stuff.

 

Short story: DCS models the range jammer only, nothing else. Not noise (gain decrease), not sidelobe+range (track-breaker/deception).

 

I think the RAZBAM crew attempted to put their own spin on it :)

I'm sorry. DCS jammers can generate false tracks. It is up to the coder if he wants to display them or not. I chose to display false returns in the VTB that's all. I could have chosen to ignore them and you would never know about the false returns. If other developers decided against it, no harm done. It is a developer's decision.

Well that is good news as it adds to the ECM suite that coders can employ in DCS.

Are you saying that there is more target/emitter data than the 'ECM ON/OFF' bit being flipped on the target aircraft? :)

I'm sorry. DCS jammers can generate false tracks. It is up to the coder if he wants to display them or not. I chose to display false returns in the VTB that's all. I could have chosen to ignore them and you would never know about the false returns. If other developers decided against it, no harm done. It is a developer's decision.

Are you saying that there is more target/emitter data than the 'ECM ON/OFF' bit being flipped on the target aircraft? :)

Yes.

That's new/news, but it's good.

If DCS can provide Noise and or False targets for the coders then logic says the option should be coded by the emitter. So as the receiver you will get to see the emitters jamming style.

If I read it correctly in the Mir2K the coders have arranged so regardless of the emitters mode you only see jamming as false targets ?

If DCS can provide Noise and or False targets for the coders then logic says the option should be coded by the emitter. So as the receiver you will get to see the emitters jamming style.

 

If I read it correctly in the Mir2K the coders have arranged so regardless of the emitters mode you only see jamming as false targets ?

I imagine that it is up to the receiver because different Radars have different abilities to filter them out (compare the F-15's advanced digital radar to the MiG-21's 'radar', which offers few advances over WW2 technology and may have been built from old microwave ovens).

I imagine that it is up to the receiver because different Radars have different abilities to filter them out (compare the F-15's advanced digital radar to the MiG-21's 'radar', which offers few advances over WW2 technology and may have been built from old microwave ovens).

Modern radars have CCME mode. But the jamming mode depends on the jammer as IvanK said.

So in perfect "sim" the jammer would have different modes and the radar should be coded to have CCME functions filtering or not, or with more or less efficiency the different jamming modes...

Most jamming techniques will present the same way. Some radar sets may simply not be vulnerable to them, but a range jammer will always show up as a range jammer - ie. a line of targets along one azimuth.

The dependence is on the ECM technique, and not so much on the receiver.

So we have a logic problem. Most of the jamming we currently see is Noise jamming. That is the multiple azimuth strobes. Now for the first time (for me anyway) we see False target jamming effects in the Mir2K. However as I understand it this is because the Mir2K coders have chosen to show jamming as false targets.

Take the situation you set up a Mig29S versus Mir2K and F15 and an SU27. The Mig29 is jamming, the F15 and SU27 sees this jamming as Noise jamming (Azimuth strobes), the Mir2K sees it as False target jamming .... alas the DCS MIG29s is coded as a noise jammer is he not ? So why should the Mir2K see false targets .... should it not be seeing the same jamming type as SU27 and F15 ?

Perhaps the Mission designer should have the option to choose what jamming mode he wants the emitter to have ? .... That is Noise or false targets

I would propose that the jammer itself have a default list of jamming techniques, and preferred techniques based on task/tactics/whatever which could then be programmed by the mission designer if necessary.

The jammer would also have some sort of technology indicator as well, and a frequency coverage attribute as well as a power emission attribute from which other fun stuff can be derived.

With all of that, you only need to send: Jammer bit (on/off) , Technique (Some set of bits indicating barrage, AZ/RNG jam, RGPO, pure noise, or other and of course combinations), frequency range

other attributes that could be sent is AZ coverage if necessary, but most of this stuff could be figured out locally and processed for AI reaction/display to player.

From there on, the receiver's ECCM 'does some work' that we don't care about, and displays the result to us :)

Still a lot of faking, but actually much more realistic AND gives you the ability to simulate SPJs vs SoJs, and run the gamut of technologies from squaky radios to rapid-frequency and phase-hopping raptor goodness.

That would be a DCS level evolution (all jammer-equipped and all radar-equipped aircraft).

So heavy "cost". Not sure it's worth it/likely.

Let me throw some light in this issue. The "jammer" in DCS does not exist at all. All it does is flip a switch indicating that the aircraft is jamming the signal.

The radar is the one who detects that switch and do one or both of the following:

- Mark the contact as undetectable based on some unknown criteria. This is the same criteria that controls missile behavior against jamming aircraft.

- Creates a fake contact (and marks it as a fake as well).

It is us, the coders. who have to make use of those two flags in order to create the radar behavior towards jamming. That includes stuff like making a simple noise jammer, a deception jammer or some other type of jamming (there are several).

Unfortunately radar behavior towards jamming and their counters are totally classified and probably will never see the light. So we, the coders, have to come with our own guess as to how to deal with it.

My suggestion is to make it consistent and represent it as AoJ like in everything else DCS.

Jamming behavior and countermeasures are not classified. There is a lot of material on ECM and ECCM out there.

Jamming capability and ECCM of specific equipment is classified, but often you can find out (or just assume) what techniques a given jammer uses and in some cases under what circumstances. It's not that hard, it's just a bit tedious and yes, requires a little bit of artistic license to implement.

Likely, maybe not. Worth it - big time. It's a matter of someone developing the database of ECM and ECCM, and canned representation of ECM techniques - it also needs to properly affect missiles etc. It's a tedious task and it will require a bunch of tweaking after it is introduced, but that's it.

If ED built the framework for it, it could slowly be filled out with help from the community.

Of course, there would be an entirely new slew of people crying about whose ECM/ECCM should be better, too :)

That would be a DCS level evolution (all jammer-equipped and all radar-equipped aircraft).

So heavy "cost". Not sure it's worth it/likely.