RWR in the Black Shark

I don't notice the ole' Russian RWR reciever in the KA-50. How do you tell you're being targeted or designated etc?

The Ka-50 as currently in service in the military and represented in DCS is not equipped with a RWR. It does have a laser warning receiver. To survive, you rely on intel. and tactics.

So I must understand the way SAM sites work...

Don't most sites use a radar guided missile?

I.E. When would I ever care if I was being laser designated? Most handhelds are heat seeking (IR), etc...

Also, I real life... say a F-16 used an uncaged AIM9 (heat seaker) without any additional radar targeting against a target... how does that target know the missile is coming inbound does it reflect the IR back at the target or just "notice" it?

IR weapons are passive.

If you are attacked with a radar weapon and you didn't see it launch, kiss your tailpipe goodbye.

Same goes for IR missiles if you don't see them launch, although the countermeasures dispenser will help you there if you use it preventively.

Tanks will happily lase you before they lay 120mm rain on you. :D

"IR Weapons are Passive"

vs.

Radar weapons actively track via radar data

In other words... IR missile you have no idea its following you

Radar missile you know very well (with appropriate reciever)

(accurate?)

"if your attacked with a radar weapon and didn't see it launch kiss your tailpipe goodbye."

What do we have Chaff for then? To evade missile or to break lock before missile is even fired? (Doesn't the Radar weapon continually "paint" you with radar energy?)

So for BOTH types you don't have any indication that the missile has launched except your Mk. I Eyeball right? :)

I.E. Tactical intel. shows that SAM site should be at 10 o'clock after I come around this mountain... so I should be scanning that area to make sure I don't see any smoke trails! Otherwise I have no idea if the radar station is even seeing me, right?

So in essence I can very easily get shot down without ever knowing a missile was launched at me before I get hit, right?

Most games you have an MFD that shows you the site thats targeting you... if its targeting you ... if it launched a missile and the time until impact... just not sure if that's realistic or not! :) Always been curious about this...

On a different subject very slightly related lol:

Doesn't the KA-50 have a transponder or is that mostly a US thing? (Where as VORs seem to be US thing and NDBs more widely used outside of the states. I'm not to familiar with other countries forms of air traffic control.) Shouldn't that pick up any radar scans? lol

"IR Weapons are Passive"

vs.

Radar weapons actively track via radar data

In other words... IR missile you have no idea its following you

Radar missile you know very well (with appropriate reciever)

(accurate?)

No, you don't necessarily know ... at least, in reality. Games are different ;)

"if your attacked with a radar weapon and didn't see it launch kiss your tailpipe goodbye."

What do we have Chaff for then? To evade missile or to break lock before missile is even fired? (Doesn't the Radar weapon continually "paint" you with radar energy?)

You don't have chaff :D

So for BOTH types you don't have any indication that the missile has launched except your Mk. I Eyeball right? :)

I.E. Tactical intel. shows that SAM site should be at 10 o'clock after I come around this mountain... so I should be scanning that area to make sure I don't see any smoke trails! Otherwise I have no idea if the radar station is even seeing me, right?

Pretty much! In fact, if you know there's any SAM there, you really shouldn't be going - unless for some reason the SAM itself is your target!

So in essence I can very easily get shot down without ever knowing a missile was launched at me before I get hit, right?

Most games you have an MFD that shows you the site thats targeting you... if its targeting you ... if it launched a missile and the time until impact... just not sure if that's realistic or not! :) Always been curious about this...

It can be realistic for certain aircraft with certain equipment, but data on real RWR's is fairly scarce. That stuff's classified since, if you know what it does and how it does it, you know that your enemy knows your radar signals, etc.

On a different subject very slightly related lol:

Doesn't the KA-50 have a transponder or is that mostly a US thing? (Where as VORs seem to be US thing and NDBs more widely used outside of the states. I'm not to familiar with other countries forms of air traffic control.) Shouldn't that pick up any radar scans? lol

The Ka-50 is equipped with an IFF transponder, though I haven't seen anything indicating a conventional civvy transponder.

As for navigation using NDB's I suggest searching the forum :)

One thing I noticed in that new SimHQ video is that on his ABRIS there was a blue "bubble" around the ZSU at the target area that updated with its movement. Was that the effective range of the ZSU's guns or something? It didn't seem like a realistic radar range. Main thing is how does a chopper without any sort of RWR get that kinda of detailed info? Datalink from some other support aircraft?

One thing I noticed in that new SimHQ video is that on his ABRIS there was a blue "bubble" around the ZSU at the target area that updated with its movement. Was that the effective range of the ZSU's guns or something? It didn't seem like a realistic radar range. Main thing is how does a chopper without any sort of RWR get that kinda of detailed info? Datalink from some other support aircraft?

I misspoke about the blue bubble around the ZSU site. I had said in the video that the moving ZSU vehicle would also have a blue moving range on the ABRIS and that is incorrect..since there is no sensor onboard the Ka-50 that could detect that. The reason it was moving at all was simply based on line of sight calculations based on the site being preloaded into the ABRIS prior to the mission (consider that "intel"). Even destroying the site will not remove the blue shading from the ABRIS (thanks for the correction EvilBivol!)...

BeachAV8R

It might be a bit off topic but speaking about SAMs I wonder if you could evade a SAM by flying very low?

Is there a certain altitude where a SAM (like SA-6/SA-10) would lose lock on you? I don't mean hiding behind terrain but some kind of signal interference in close proximity to the ground.

And is something like that modeled in DCS?

ED have specifically mentioned about Line of sight calculations in one of their updates in relation to radio traffic (aka Datalink) and connection to the GPS system that Abris uses (GLONASS?), and I am pretty sure they have also mentioned line of sight occlusion for Radar (which is allready modelled in LOMAC anyway)...so yeah I imagine that radar bounce off proximity to land might be factored in.

Of course, if these SAM sites are specifically designed to track low / slow moving targets, well I imagine they might have solved the issue of ground clutter ? (I don't know squat about SAM / AAA radar)

The mission for which the Ka-50 is intended implies that the adversary will not be advanced enough or have the resources necessary in order to deploy radar-guided

air defenses. Because of that, the aircraft is not equipped with any kind of defense against radar-guided threats.

Note that I'm not the first to mention this, I'm just reiterating it here since it seems applicable.

It is strange Ka50 is not equipped with RWR... What when I fly into airspace where I know there is no SAMs but where are hostile aircrafts flying BarCAP and I wasn't informed about them earlier?

Why were you not informed of it? Take that Ka-50 and make a mess of whichever intel officer let you fly into that deathtrap. Even if you had an RWR.

I think the general misconception is the role of the BlackShark.

It is my understand, that the BlackShark is not primarly seen in the same role the Apache, Hind, Havok or Tiger fit in. Those are heavily armed and armored attack helos primarily to take out heavily armored targets or reinforced military installations often in wings or groups.

Compared to that, the BlackShark is a small and rather simple helo, with a variety of missions from recon to deep strike. What it lacks in the ability to take out enemy tanks with stand-off fire-and-forget-capability it compensates by it's small size, speed, maneuverability and rather simple controls, managable by just one pilot.

Accordingly it rather goes fast and low, which makes it a target for small arms fire and IR-seaking missiles, rather than Radar-guided missiles. If at all it's faced with medium to low altitude and range weaponry, which is mostly laser-guided, now, but therefore it aparently has a detector.

Well, at least that's my idea of the BS - feel free to correct me.

Some systems cannot target helicopters, that is correct. If you know its there you can try and fly low enough that it won't attack you.

Some systems are made to attack helicopters, so just don't go anywhere near those ;)

It might be a bit off topic but speaking about SAMs I wonder if you could evade a SAM by flying very low?

Is there a certain altitude where a SAM (like SA-6/SA-10) would lose lock on you? I don't mean hiding behind terrain but some kind of signal interference in close proximity to the ground.

And is something like that modeled in DCS?

Having no RWR is just one thing less to care about in combat as you couldn't do much about a hostile fighter anyway.

Why were you not informed of it? Take that Ka-50 and make a mess of whichever intel officer let you fly into that deathtrap. Even if you had an RWR.

Having no RWR is just one thing less to care about in combat as you couldn't do much about a hostile fighter anyway.

I mean there can be always unpredictable situation. I could at least fly around hiding or turn back. I can't see the logic in not equipping helo with RWR.

That depends, Poko.

And RWR like that in the F15 is nice.

But consider the Russian version in a helo on a deep strike mission. You get painted by a radar and cannot see if it is friend or foe and are not allowed to ask for ID and the disengaged uplink won't help you either. Considering a real battlefield, that's much more disturbing than a real help or guide, I can imagine.

You contrailers got to start thinking like us treehoppers :D j/k

As for navigation using NDB's I suggest searching the forum :)

I just got my Instrument Rating a few weeks ago, I know quite well how NDB navigation works! :D I was just using that as an example (not sure if other countries have the same sort of air traffic control, thus requiring a transponder like the US does...)

Otherwise thanks for the info! lol

The mission for which the Ka-50 is intended implies that the adversary will not be advanced enough or have the resources necessary in order to deploy radar-guided

air defenses. Because of that, the aircraft is not equipped with any kind of defense against radar-guided threats.

 

Note that I'm not the first to mention this, I'm just reiterating it here since it seems applicable.

Very appropriate as it seems a few of us, at least, have not noticed this information. I knew the Shark fought in lower threat situations but I did not think of the enemy not even having radar to begin with. lol!

Simply:

Why no RWR?

Because you'll never be shot at with radar guided weapons.

Oh, okay.

:D

Now another question... :

Since most sims have us being targeted by SAM sites that use Radar, etc. What types of anti air do we have to look for? What are the defensive maneuvers / procedures to survive these?

I just got my Instrument Rating a few weeks ago, I know quite well how NDB navigation works! :D I was just using that as an example (not sure if other countries have the same sort of air traffic control, thus requiring a transponder like the US does...)

 

Otherwise thanks for the info! lol

I meant in order to find info as it pertains to the simulation itself :)

Very appropriate as it seems a few of us, at least, have not noticed this information. I knew the Shark fought in lower threat situations but I did not think of the enemy not even having radar to begin with. lol!

 

Simply:

Why no RWR?

Because you'll never be shot at with radar guided weapons.

Oh, okay.

 

:D

At least you didn't ask why it it isn't packing air to air weapons ;)

Now another question... :

Since most sims have us being targeted by SAM sites that use Radar, etc. What types of anti air do we have to look for? What are the defensive maneuvers / procedures to survive these?

You'll be engaged by small arms fire, low-caliber AAA, artillery pieces, tanks, and typically MANPADS as far as missiles go.

You may also be engaged with anti-tank weapons such as TOW, of Vikhr, and some form of SACLOS missile like the Tunguska's missiles (the Tunguska's raison d'aitre is defending against helicopters ... so if you're told this SAM's around, plan accordingly!)

Your tools to avoid getting blown up by these are thus:

GOOD planning in all cases. Pick your aproach route and your shooting spot well ahead of time. Pick several attack positions that you can move to and drom under cover.

Choose a good scouting position - just in case there's some surprises, you want to know them ahead of time.

Avoid fighting in the open.

KNOW your opposition and they capabilities. Understand that a tunguska isn't IR or Radar guided, you cannot decoy it - for example, nor an anti-tank weapon.

Completely avoid SAMs you cannot decoy or easily attack.

Use your countermeasure dispenser (equipped with flares) pre-emptively. You won't always see a MANPADS launch!

Attack from a distance, based on the threat.

Use sound judgement.

Always have your exit planned for any moment in the fight.

Do not be afraid to abort a mission if it starts looking really nasty.

Plan. Did I mention Plan? And plan to avoid stuff. Take out your target, leave the fluff to heroes ;)

I'm sure I missed a -lot- of stuff, but those are the bare basics.

I meant in order to find info as it pertains to the simulation itself :)

 

 

 

 

At least you didn't ask why it it isn't packing air to air weapons ;)

 

 

 

 

 

You'll be engaged by small arms fire, low-caliber AAA, artillery pieces, tanks, and typically MANPADS as far as missiles go.

You may also be engaged with anti-tank weapons such as TOW, of Vikhr, and some form of SACLOS missile like the Tunguska's missiles (the Tunguska's raison d'aitre is defending against helicopters ... so if you're told this SAM's around, plan accordingly!)

 

Your tools to avoid getting blown up by these are thus:

GOOD planning in all cases. Pick your aproach route and your shooting spot well ahead of time. Pick several attack positions that you can move to and drom under cover.

Choose a good scouting position - just in case there's some surprises, you want to know them ahead of time.

Avoid fighting in the open.

KNOW your opposition and they capabilities. Understand that a tunguska isn't IR or Radar guided, you cannot decoy it - for example, nor an anti-tank weapon.

 

Completely avoid SAMs you cannot decoy or easily attack.

Use your countermeasure dispenser (equipped with flares) pre-emptively. You won't always see a MANPADS launch!

 

Attack from a distance, based on the threat.

 

Use sound judgement.

 

Always have your exit planned for any moment in the fight.

 

Do not be afraid to abort a mission if it starts looking really nasty.

 

 

Plan. Did I mention Plan? And plan to avoid stuff. Take out your target, leave the fluff to heroes ;)

 

I'm sure I missed a -lot- of stuff, but those are the bare basics.

more - MORE - MMOOOORE

...the Tunguska's raison d'aitre is defending against helicopters ...

...so if you're told this SAM's around, plan accordingly....

...Understand that a tunguska isn't IR or Radar guided, you cannot decoy it - for example, nor an anti-tank weapon...

Are the tunguska's missiles laser guided? If so, then you would surely have warning...

They're radio beam-riders.

They're radio beam-riders.

Geesh, why would anyone want to fly a helicopter in a modern battlefield with all these defenses against them? :joystick:

Sure sounds like the planning and execution of the flight will be just as fun as blowing things up. The reward of running tree lines and sneaking up through enemy defenses to achieve mission success sounds like it will be most of the fun! :D Actually killing your target is just the icing on the cake at that point! :P

Thanks for all the info!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SACLOS

Basically the method to break a lock is to break line of sight... sounds simple enough depending on the terrain :) however you have NO idea the missile is being launched! :) Scary!

It also looks like SALCOS conveys a few types of missiles.

TOW's (Wire Guided SALCOS)

SA-8's (Radio Guided SALCOS)

and there are also laser guided SALCOs (Do hellfires/vikhrs fall under that?)

Also it looks like your Tunguska's fire SA-19s? Arn't those radar guided?

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tunguska/

The whole system seems to be radar based? (Same tunguska you were talking about?)

You have to pilot to where you can attack or be attacked, and believe me, it is sometimes doggedly annoying ... I just got nailed by a vortex ring state, twice! :P